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Sunday, February 13th 2011

10:15 AM

Question For The HBDers: What Do Thomas Jefferson, Strom Thurmond and Chris Lee, All Have In Common?

"I’m gonna take a second to whoop it up for the black chicks. There is just no way that seeing any of these women on the street you wouldn’t want to smash that. Those women (but especially the West African chick) make my dick stand tall proud long and strong.

I know this blog makes cottage industry out of ripping on black people, but I just had to represent for quick a minute.

dragnet out/"

- Dragnet, speaking his piece at Roissy's blog, Feb 2011

Unless you've been living under a rock all your life, the answer of course, is they all had notable relationships with Black Women in some shape, form or fashion - and all three were also either virulent racists, slave owners, or at the very least, were associated with political parties who are viewed as not having very high views of African Americans on a whole.

The cases of Jefferson and Thurmond are well documented; the past week brought us the third case, as it became news that former US Congressman, Chris Lee of the Empire State, had been caught shirtless and cold-busted trying to holla at one Ms. Yesha Callahan, an African American 34 year old singlemom from the Washington DC area and blogger in her own right. Her pics are all over the Internet; I got a good look at her here. There is no denying that she's Black. (H/T: Chuck Ross)

The standard line in HBD circles is that Black Women are the scourge of the Earth, who no White Man would be caught dead with, when everything we know about American history says something else; the vast majority of "miscegenation" took place as the result of sexual unions consisting of an African slave Woman and a White Man, sometimes a slave master, sometimes not, and which results in the fact that just about every American descendent of African slaves has somewhere between 10 and 20% White ancestry. Sure, some of those liasons might have been consensual - the deal between Sally Hemmings and Thomas Jefferson certainly appears that way. But we also know that in at least some of those cases, the Sistas considered Mr. Charlie's sexual advances unwarranted. Of course, given that Black folks in America had no rights any White Man or Woman was bound to respect for much of the country's history, there really wasn't a heck of a lot Black Women or Men could do about White guys hankering to get them some brown sugar, right?

I've been following this story very closely, and as you might have guessed, I most certainly do have my own take on things; stay tuned in the coming days for more on that note. And to be sure, former Rep. Lee was clearly outta pocket in what he did. But the one thing that we DO know, for a fact, is that this tow-the-party-line Republican, liked the Dark Meat - and I just had to take the golden opportunity, to point that out to our erstwhile HBD brothers, and rub. Their. Nose. In. It. Indeed, what Ms. Callahan has experienced in this regard, tallies very well with the Sistas I've personally known who've posted personals ads online (though none of them being Craigslist - more on that, very, very soon), have always said - they've all told me that their inboxes were deluged with White guys trying to holla at them (even when their ads didn't specify that they were even looking for White Men, I might add). Of course, this isn't a scientific study or anything. Just me hearing from the Black Women in my life in one way or another - relations, ladyfriends and the like, over the years. And according to them, White guys come out at you outta the woodwork when you post an ad online. I'm just sayin.

It will be very, very interesting to see, what the HBD Crowd, will say about all that (if anything at all; HBDers have a tendency towards being a bit slippery when they're caught cold busted). I encourage you all to hit up Roissy, OneSTDV, Steve Sailer, Half Sigma, Unamused, Lawrence Auster, Chuck Ross and others, and simply ask them to read this post and ask for their comment. Should be a very interesting exercise, heh heh...

Now adjourn your lying, lusting-for-Black Women asses...

The Obsidian

104 comment(s).

Posted by Chuck:

White men hit up black women on these dating websites because white men know that black women are sluttier than white women. See Roissy on that measure.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 1:46 PM

Posted by Y:

Oh please Chuck. Black women have a reputation for shutting down non-black (especially white) men that approach them, for whatever reason.

If a white dude is looking to get his freak on with any ethnicity other than white his best bet is to go Asian. It's no big secret that MANY Asian females have a bona fide fetish for white meat.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 2:04 PM

Posted by Y:

And BTW Roissy runs game mainly on white females, correct. And to date only has one post detailing an affair with a black woman. How the hell are we suppose to take the word of a man that doesnt deal with black women sexual on whether black women are sluts?

SMH, foolishness.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 2:16 PM

Posted by PA:

Black women have a reputation for shutting down non-black (especially white)

All women overwhelmingly prefer men of their own race, so that goes for black women as well. Having said that, I occasionally meet white men who do have a thing for black chicks, and I see these guys approaching or flirting with black girls. The black women's reaction is always one of (1) surprise, and (2) visible pleasure.

I think that black women shoot down white (or non-black) men as a face-saving preemption, because black women assume they are not on these men's sexual radar.

But whey they see a white man with some Game and look of attraction approach them, they light up.

That's what I've seen anyway.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 2:27 PM

Posted by terry@ breathing grace:

Good points, Y. I know I was totally uninterested when white men asked me out. It may be that white men have been conditioned to believe that black women are easier, but it's not true. White women are far from paragons of virtue. Several have asked my husband out on several occasions. This, knowing that he's married.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 2:38 PM

Posted by Height Privilege:

"How the hell are we suppose to take the word of a man that doesnt deal with black women sexual on whether black women are sluts?"

Well, differences in the rates of STD infections between races of women is one way he could conjecture. But I don't think Lee sought out a black woman simply because of perceived sluttiness; I think he just has a thing for black chicks.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 2:45 PM

Posted by Chuck:

Y:

Roissy cited facts and figures that show that black women have more sex and more sex partners than women of other races. He doesn't have to have sex with black women to be able to reach a statistical chart or a table.

Terry:

3 black girls - out of the 6 that I've worked with - have hit on me knowing that I have a girlfriend. One said "if you get tired of white girls and want to try something else, hit me up".
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 2:51 PM

Posted by Chuck:

HP:

why do you say that? he could very well have a thing for black chicks, but he married a white woman, and there is no other evidence that he has a black fetish. it could just be that he stumbled across a woman who was black. it is the DC metro area after all; chances are good that a random woman on CL would be black.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 2:53 PM

Posted by terry@ breathing grace:

I have no doubt that black women have hit on you. I'm a little older, and came of age in an era when most black women still held out hope for their tall, very dark, and handsome Prince. Things have changed.

Secondly, My point is simply that your average modern woman white, black, brown or red, is seriously lacking virtue and sexual restraint. No group is worse than another.

If the STD stats are to be believed (and I have no reason to doubt them), it simply proves that black women use condoms and contraceptive less than other women. That's a wholly different issue and one that needs to be addressed by someone with the guts to do it

But to imply that there are substantial numbers of virginal white women compared to black is ludicrous.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:02 PM

Posted by PA:

Women in general overwhelmingly prefer men of their own race, and black women are no exception.

Much of black women's claims to rebuffing white men is a preemptive face-saving, as theyassume they are off white men's sexual radar.

But there are white men who are into black chicks, and I always see the same thing, when these guys hit on a black chick: (1) a big surprise on her part. (2) great delight on their part when a white man wiht some Game and obvious attraction hits on them.

(I wrote a similar comment earleir but the blog ate it)
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:11 PM

Posted by Chuck:

Terry said:

I have no doubt that black women have hit on you. I'm a little older, and came of age in an era when most black women still held out hope for their tall, very dark, and handsome Prince. Things have changed.

Chuck:

That sounds a little miscegenistic.

But speaking to your argument that black women are no more "slutty" than white women or women of other races.

A study conducted by the CDC, summarized and linked below, found that a higher percentage of black women had 15+ partners than women of other races. They start having sex earlier.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19374216/ns/health-sexual_health/
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:17 PM

Posted by Y:

So let's say black women are bigger sluts, fine. But you have to acknowledge black women are quite select with the race of men they will be slutty with, and that's usually black men.

Of all races of women black women have the strongest racial preferences. As a group they are least likely to prefer men of other races especially white. It's possible that Lee chose this black chick because thats the first woman he came across, but I find it hard to believe that perceived sluttiness/willingness was the reason. Simply put BW are the least cooperative when it comes to dealing with white men in the sex/romance department. If he was looking for an easy lay/affair with a non-WW Asian or even Latina would have been an sure-er(yes I made this up) thing
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:27 PM

Posted by Y:

Also I won't jump the gun on the fetish thing but given his status and looks(not bad for a 46 yr old WM) he could have gotten a white or non-black mistress if he pleased.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:29 PM

Posted by Y:

I wont jump the gun on the fetish speculation but I will say this: given his looks, money, and status I'm sure hr could have bagged a white or non-black mistress I that's what he wanted
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:31 PM

Posted by terry@ breathing grace:

@ Chuck:

I fully admit I was bound and determined that my Prince was black. I don't apologize for it, because I truly have no problems with miscegenation. None at all. It just wasn't what I wanted.

As for black girls having sex earlier. You and I both know it's because black girls, who are largely fatherless, are unprotected and unsupervised. White girls in the same situation head down the exact same path.

Last year, I reached out to a lovely young white girl in our neighborhood who'd gone to elementary school with my now 16-year-old daughter. Her home is broken, and she's been in relationships with several of the boys in the neighborhood. She and my daughter went separate ways in middle school as she began hanging out with the wrong crowd. But I remembered the little girl I knew, before the boys, and the weed, and the rumored abortion. So I told her God loves her, she's beautiful, and she could be so much more. She almost cried, but I can tell she didn't believe me. And I could tell that weed-head loser boyfriend of hers didn't appreciate me stopping them on their way to his parent-free house after school.

It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with stable families and active, engaged fathers.

And since you're so into stats, I know that YOU know I'm right. It just feels better to find a reason to regurgitate all that white superiority nonsense, doesn't it?
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:33 PM

Posted by Chuck:

Y:

Oh, I should clarify. My first comment was merely me filling the strain of argument that Obsidian wants to hear on this subject. He's written about this topic so many times, and it never goes anywhere.

I'll grant you that Lee probably didn't respond to the CL ad just because the chick was black and thus he figured she was a big slut, but then I'll also assume that Lee didn't go after the chick just because he had some sort of Strom Thurmond-esque fetish. He saw an ad for a woman that indicated that she was down to get down. She happened to be black. Lee responded (also, if you read her interview she certainly seemed somewhat interested).

If that's the case, Obsidian's point is incorrect. Go figure.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:34 PM

Posted by Chuck:

terry:

Note that I said nothing about black women being inherently slutty. But if men are going to respond to a woman because he thinks he can fuck her, then it doesn't really matter what her upbringing was like. A slut is a slut regardless of the factors that caused her to be one.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:37 PM

Posted by terry@ breathing grace:

@ Chuck:

But you did say black women were sluttier. Right here:

White men hit up black women on these dating websites because white men know that black women are sluttier than white women.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 3:42 PM

Posted by Y:

This is my 3rd attempt at posting this. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he has some black fetish. He may or may not. I will say this, given his status, income, and looks he could get a complacent white or non-black mistress if he wanted one.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 4:04 PM

Posted by Alte:

ROFL! Now we know why he resigned.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 4:42 PM

Posted by Alte:

Much of black women's claims to rebuffing white men is a preemptive face-saving, as they assume they are off white men's sexual radar.

No, they don't assume that. At least, not where I live/lived Texas and Maryland. Black women here are pretty used to white men hitting on them.

Simply put BW are the least cooperative when it comes to dealing with white men in the sex/romance department.

Absolutely. Abagond's written a lot about this.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 4:46 PM

Posted by Alte:

Chuck, I didn't see Obsidian talking about a "black fetish" anywhere. The point was more that this was further evidence against the idea that "white men think black women are unattractive".

I have heard that over and over, but have seen little proof of it in real life.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 5:16 PM

Posted by La Reyna:

Yes, Mr. Lee has been caught and he's not alone in trying to get a Black woman dept. either. What gets me is that HBDers would deny that any wm get with any bw at anytime nor do they want to hear or read about the painful history of bw/wm relationships in this country. I wish they read the book, The Dark End of the Street.

Today, most Black women want Black men. People like Chuck don't understand that Black women have choices. Their choice is to be with a Black man. I wish they stop bashing Black men with their hypocrisy about Black male sexuality.

Just my two cents,

La Reyna
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 6:23 PM

Posted by JL:

From an HBD perspective, this is not a big mystery. Men have lower standards in short-term relationships; it's about who's available, not particulars like race. Jefferson, Thurmond, and Lee all have/had white wives.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 7:27 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi JL,
Replies below:

JL: From an HBD perspective, this is not a big mystery. Men have lower standards in short-term relationships; it's about who's available, not particulars like race. Jefferson, Thurmond, and Lee all have/had white wives.

O: I don't disagree. HBD has its roots in Evolutionary Psychology, and to that extent, all that matters is you passing your genes on into the future; marriage is irrelevant, because that is a Manmade convention. These guys found these Sistas hot enough to do the deed - period. From an EP standpoint, thats all that matters.

Hence my previous points made above.

As for Jefferson and Thurmond:

Jefferson was a widower by the time he began his longstanding affair with Sally Hemmings. Thurmond was a considerably younger Man at the time he fathered a Black daughter with his family maid:

"Six months after Thurmond's death on June 26, 2003, Essie Mae Washington-Williams publicly revealed that she was Strom Thurmond's daughter. She was born to a black maid, Carrie "Tunch" Butler (1909–1948), on October 12, 1925, when Butler was 16 years old and Thurmond 22. He helped pay Washington-Williams' way through college and later paid her sums of money in cash or checks passed through relatives. Though Thurmond never publicly acknowledged Washington-Williams when he was alive, he continued to support her financially. These payments extended well into her adult life.[25] Washington-Williams has stated that she did not reveal she was Thurmond's daughter during his lifetime because it "wasn't to the advantage of either one of us"[25] and that she kept silent out of love and respect for her father. She denies that there was an agreement between the two to keep her connection to Thurmond silent.[25]

After Washington-Williams came forward, the Thurmond family publicly acknowledged her parentage. Many close friends, staff members, and SC state residents had long suspected this to have been the case,[26] stating that Thurmond ha
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 10:55 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

After Washington-Williams came forward, the Thurmond family publicly acknowledged her parentage. Many close friends, staff members, and SC state residents had long suspected this to have been the case,[26] stating that Thurmond had always taken a great amount of interest in Washington-Williams and that she was granted a degree of access to Thurmond more appropriate to a family member than to a member of the public."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_Thurmond#Another_daughter

Earlier on in the Wiki account it states that Thurmond first got married in the year 1947 - when he was about 45 years old. This meant that he wasn't married at the time he sired a daughter with a Black Woman, and as you can see above, he acknowledged his daughter and after his death, so did the rest of his family.

So, you were saying?

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 10:56 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Alte writes:
"Chuck, I didn't see Obsidian talking about a "black fetish" anywhere. The point was more that this was further evidence against the idea that "white men think black women are unattractive".

I have heard that over and over, but have seen little proof of it in real life."

Alte FTW.

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:01 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

You know, what is so very interesting about this discussion is despite the fact that we have three Black Women, all of whom have actually been hit on by White Men and them not being interested, STILL Chuck and PA choose to ignore that and cling to their ideology. Talk about cognitive dissonance.

Unfreakin' believable...

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:04 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Chuck says:
"White men hit up black women on these dating websites because white men know that black women are sluttier than white women. See Roissy on that measure."

O: I think Roissy's been discredited on that score, LOL. As for the other part of your statement, given the fact that the venue in which Lee and Callahan met was Craigslist - a one stop shop for sluttiness - it all becomes a moot point, since almost by definition, ANY Woman, regardless of color, would be considered a slut if she's on CL. That, plus the facts Terry, Y and Alte pointed out about Black Women routinely turning down more White Men than they get with, kinda discredits you, too. Wanna try again? ;)

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:08 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Y,
Replies below:

Y: And BTW Roissy runs game mainly on white females, correct.

O: Correct.

Y: And to date only has one post detailing an affair with a black woman. How the hell are we suppose to take the word of a man that doesnt deal with black women sexual on whether black women are sluts?

SMH, foolishness.

O: Indeed.

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:10 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi PA,
Replies below:

PA: All women overwhelmingly prefer men of their own race, so that goes for black women as well.

O: Not true; Asian Women are very well known for their rather high out-marital rates to White Men. See the NYT for more in this regard as to who is and is not IR marrying in the USA these days.

PA: Having said that, I occasionally meet white men who do have a thing for black chicks, and I see these guys approaching or flirting with black girls. The black women's reaction is always one of (1) surprise, and (2) visible pleasure.

O: That has absolutely no bearing in the least with what I wrote, which had to do with the fact that there are indeed quite a few White Men who find Black Women sexually attractive. The Sistas' response either way, is irrelevant.

PA: I think that black women shoot down white (or non-black) men as a face-saving preemption, because black women assume they are not on these men's sexual radar.

O: False. Black Women shootdown White Men because they just not that into them.

PA: But whey they see a white man with some Game and look of attraction approach them, they light up.

O: This isn't reflected in the marital rate. Or the modern day biracial children rate born of such couples.

PA: That's what I've seen anyway.

O: You need to get out more. Definitely.

Holla back

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:15 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
Replies below:

C: Y:

Roissy cited facts and figures that show that black women have more sex and more sex partners than women of other races. He doesn't have to have sex with black women to be able to reach a statistical chart or a table.

Terry:

3 black girls - out of the 6 that I've worked with - have hit on me knowing that I have a girlfriend. One said "if you get tired of white girls and want to try something else, hit me up".

O: OK, so let's analyze this for a moment - first you say that Roissy has stats to back his claims up about Black Women on the one hand, then you turn around and give your anecdotal experiences about Black Women on the other. And we're just supposed to buy both as prima facia evidence that supports your claims?

Whew...

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:22 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
Replies below:

C: HP:

why do you say that? he could very well have a thing for black chicks, but he married a white woman, and there is no other evidence that he has a black fetish. it could just be that he stumbled across a woman who was black. it is the DC metro area after all; chances are good that a random woman on CL would be black.

O: No one is arguing that he or any of the other Men I mentioned in my post had a "fetish" for Black Women. As for his "stumbling" across a Woman who just happened to be Black - not likely. Not only are CL ads very specific on this score, but there are pics included. He sought her out, Chuck. Why do you have such a hard time accepting this?

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:26 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
Replies below:

C: But speaking to your argument that black women are no more "slutty" than white women or women of other races.

A study conducted by the CDC, summarized and linked below, found that a higher percentage of black women had 15+ partners than women of other races. They start having sex earlier.

O: Even if that is indeed true, it has nothing to do with what I said above - that White Men have been documented as having found Black Women sexually attractive, and that directly undercuts the arguments put forth by Roissy and others to the contrary. Please try reading for comprehension next time?

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:29 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
Replies below:

C: Oh, I should clarify. My first comment was merely me filling the strain of argument that Obsidian wants to hear on this subject. He's written about this topic so many times, and it never goes anywhere.

O: That's because you HBD types puit blind ideology before facts, truth, logic, reason or just plain ole commonsense.

C: I'll grant you that Lee probably didn't respond to the CL ad just because the chick was black and thus he figured she was a big slut, but then I'll also assume that Lee didn't go after the chick just because he had some sort of Strom Thurmond-esque fetish. He saw an ad for a woman that indicated that she was down to get down. She happened to be black. Lee responded (also, if you read her interview she certainly seemed somewhat interested).

O: Apparently not, given the events in the news over the past week...

C: If that's the case, Obsidian's point is incorrect. Go figure.

O: False. Lee sought out a Black Woman. Period.

O.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:33 PM

Posted by Chuck:

Straw man arguments all around - from all of you.

I've never said that some white men aren't attracted to some black women. You're all stupid if you think that has ever been my position or PA's or any other HBDer.

What we have said is that white men, by and large, are not attracted to black women. Most of you seem to agree with the statement that a certain race of people tends to be attracted to their own race.

Terry:

I said that black women probably aren't *inherently* sluttier than other women. They *are* sluttier if we just take a look at their predilection towards sexual intercourse. The numbers show that black women have more sex. The reasons for that could be entirely cultural - or nurture - but that doesn't change the fact that they are having more sex. So yes, black women are sluttier than white women.
Sunday, February 13th 2011 @ 11:55 PM

Posted by Y:

Nah Chuck, we just dont like it when HBDers and the sort try and complicate things when it comes to this topic.

As far as evolutionary biology/phychology is concerned there is a 2 point scale for female attractiveness.

0-she doesnt make you hard
1-she makes you hard.

End of. However, those of your ilk like to go into you is a slut and who isnt ect. Whether white guys consider these women as LTR potential ect. is irrelevant. Evolutionarily speaking, those things that doesn't matter. Black or not if she stimulates you, that's all that matters.

This isn't directed at you but there seems to be this idea that WM don't find BW as attractive, in aggregate, as other races of women, which I would agree with. Some even go as far as saying the WM that get with BW are lame or dont have options, WW rejects. These beliefs make it THAT much more fascinating to see WM in positions of power get caught with their pants down with BW.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 12:11 AM

Posted by Obsidian:

Y,
Excellently well put and presented. Simply put, the HBDers don't have a leg to stand on here. The facts speak for themselves.

Your response, Chuck - if you can?

LOL

SMH

O.
:P
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 12:58 AM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
Replies below:

C: Straw man arguments all around - from all of you.

O: Says the guy who's very first comment was "White men hit up black women on these dating websites because white men know that black women are sluttier than white women." Even though we have actual historical evidence (Jefferson, Thurmond) that this simply isnt true, and in any event is a serious red herring, because no one, not I or anyone else, was discussing such a topic. Yea, riiiight...

C: I've never said that some white men aren't attracted to some black women. You're all stupid if you think that has ever been my position or PA's or any other HBDer.

O: OK, so everyone one on this thread is therefore wrong, right, Chuck?

C: What we have said is that white men, by and large, are not attracted to black women. Most of you seem to agree with the statement that a certain race of people tends to be attracted to their own race.

O: No - what I SAID, was that American historical evidence directly contradicts what you and other HBDers have said, both in terms of anecdotal evidence and in terms of DNA evidence, and in terms of historical evidence. Again, please see my post. There were and are, quite a few White Men, who find Black Women sexually attractive. Fact.

C: Terry:

I said that black women probably aren't *inherently* sluttier than other women. They *are* sluttier if we just take a look at their predilection towards sexual intercourse. The numbers show that black women have more sex. The reasons for that could be entirely cultural - or nurture - but that doesn't change the fact that they are having more sex. So yes, black women are sluttier than white women.

O: Again, it is at best a moot point, given the nature of the venue in which Lee met Callahan; Craigslist is a known hangout spot for sluts. I'll be dealing more with this in my next installment post on this topic, so by all means, stay tuned. But suffice it to say, as Y has pointed out several times
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 1:07 AM

Posted by Obsidian:

C: Terry:

I said that black women probably aren't *inherently* sluttier than other women. They *are* sluttier if we just take a look at their predilection towards sexual intercourse. The numbers show that black women have more sex. The reasons for that could be entirely cultural - or nurture - but that doesn't change the fact that they are having more sex. So yes, black women are sluttier than white women.

O: Again, it is at best a moot point, given the nature of the venue in which Lee met Callahan; Craigslist is a known hangout spot for sluts. I'll be dealing more with this in my next installment post on this topic, so by all means, stay tuned. But suffice it to say, as Y has pointed out several times before, if Lee had wanted a White or Asian or Hispanic, etc, slut, he could have easily gotten one. He wanted some of the Dark Meat, end of.

Holla back - if you can...

O.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 1:08 AM

Posted by argh:

Chuck did not link to an actual study, just a writeup which mentioned a few salacious details. All we know from that writeup is that 1 in 8 black women has more than 15 partners. We don't know what the percentages are for non-black women. If 11% of white women have 15+ partners, for example, then no, black women aren't inherently sluttier, but basically the same in sluttitude.

Don't let Chuck get away with trying to rep black women as extra-skanky without actual statistical data references. We don't actually have that information.

As for the STD thing, black women are diagnosed with STDs based on visual inspection rather than testing far more often than women of other races. This is because black women are more likely to go to free or sliding scale clinics where there is not exactly money to shell out STD testing people who aren't going to be paying for it anyhow. So that is contaminated data, the extent of which is unknown.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 5:01 AM

Posted by Chuck:

Obsidian started his post with:
The standard line in HBD circles is that black women are the scourge of the Earth, who no white man would be caught dead with.
Chuck: Where have HBDers said this? You create the notion of a standard line wrt HBD thought on the subject of interracial relationships.
Y said:
As far as evolutionary biology/psychology is concerned there is a 2 point scale for female attractiveness, 0 = she doesn’t make you hard
1= she does make you hard
Chuck: And we’re talking about the aggregate right? As in, we’re talking about the generalizations of a certain group of people. You’ll find men who get hard over all kinds of things; getting hard is a pretty narrow metric to use for this discussion. Either way, there aren’t that many white dicks getting hard over black women. I’m a white man who has many white man friends, and take it from me that white men aren’t that attracted to black women. They just aren’t. Some would hit it if they got the chance, but then some would hit anything if they got the chance. That’s just how it is.
This is just a stupid recurring meme of Obsidian’s. He wants to make it seem as if all white men have this deep-seeded hankering for black women that they just can’t deny. The thing is that men of all races have a deep-seeded hankering for any woman that they perceive will let them have sex with them.
What would have happened if Thomas Jefferson had a group of white slaves? Do you think he would have picked from out of the white female slave population or the black female slave population?
*Again, just to make it fair: black women don’t have all that much love for white men. As you say, Y (and Terry), black women don’t find white men that attractive. The argument can safely be left right there without citing a relatively few number of cases and a mischaracterization of those cases to “prove” that HBDers are wrong.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 5:33 AM

Posted by Chuck:

Obsidian: There were and are, quite a few white men, who find black women sexually attractive. Fact.
Chuck: You use a lot of qualifying words there. What is “quite a few white men”? How many is that? How do you gauge where “not that many” becomes “quite a few” or “a lot”? If you compare the attraction that white men have for white women to the attraction that white men have for black women, then you can safely say that white men have “not that much” attraction for black women. Hell, if you compare the attraction that black men have for white women to the attraction that white men have for black women, then you can comparatively say that relatively few white men have love for black women.
Obsidian: if Lee had wanted a white or Asian or Hispanic, etc, slut, he could have easily gotten one. He wanted some of the dark meat, end of.
Chuck: Yeah, and sometimes I crave sushi. Perhaps once a year. This doesn’t mean I prefer sushi over steak; just that when the stars align on one certain night I would rather have sushi than steak.
You have no way of knowing that Lee *wanted* dark meat and only dark meat. He could have just wanted meat. Perhaps he was just starving in general and would have eaten anything put in front of him. In the DC area, chances are decent that he’d get some dark meat served up.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 5:43 AM

Posted by Chuck:

argh:

here's the CDC report.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad384.pdf

From the study we see that 12.5% of black women have had 15 or more partners compared to 9.6% of white women.

39.8% of black women versus 31.7% of white women have had 7+ partners.

19% of black women have had 2 or more partners in the past year while only 8.5% of white women have.

Those are the facts, and such facts support my assertion that black women are "sluttier" than white women if "sluttiness" increases as the number of sex partners increase i.e. we don't say that a woman who has *less* sex is sluttier.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 5:56 AM

Posted by JL:

Obdisian, the point is that white men generally find white women much more attractive than black women. Given choice, they will choose white women. However, with Asian women, that is not necessarily the case, nor is it the case with, say, black men with regard to white women. These are of course just strong tendencies, not hard and fast rules, so you cannot disprove them with anecdotes. Moreover, as pointed out above, men lower their standards in short-term relationships.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 7:07 AM

Posted by terry@ breathing grace:

Okay, Chuck. I can see where our wires got crossed. We are using a different metric. Forgive me for being combative when we were discussing apples and oranges. Or at least Granny Smith apples vs. McIntosh. The two have very different flavors.

My definition of sluttiness rests on a woman's attitude toward sex followed by how that plays out.

In my mind, the fact that black women statistically have had more sex partners is a result of starting sex earlier, which is a result of nurture, not nature.

While the number of partners is somewhat relevant, in my mind it doesn't tell the whole story. If a white girl aged 17, has parents who suddenly loosen the reigns (and I've sen this a great deal), starts having 2 sex partners a year, she's no different to me than the black girl who started the same trend at age 14. The black girl just got a running head start. If both of them, marry at age 26 and have been with two or three men a year since they became sexually active, I don't see the white woman as more chaste by virtue of the numbers alone.

Of course, I'm religious, and place a high premium of the state of one's heart and mind, as well as the actions.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 8:24 AM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
Observing your psychology in this regard is fascinating, I must say.

Replies below:

C: You use a lot of qualifying words there. What is “quite a few white men”? How many is that? How do you gauge where “not that many” becomes “quite a few” or “a lot”? If you compare the attraction that white men have for white women to the attraction that white men have for black women, then you can safely say that white men have “not that much” attraction for black women. Hell, if you compare the attraction that black men have for white women to the attraction that white men have for black women, then you can comparatively say that relatively few white men have love for black women.

O: I didn't say anything about "love". I was talking about historical facts, up to and including the actions of Mr. Lee. How many White Men find Black American Women attractive, you ask? Enough to the point where today, nearly every African American has somewhere between 10 to 20% White Male ancestry, on average. There are roughly 40 million African Americans in the USA currently. So, I'd say "quite a few". Mr. Lee is proof.

C: Yeah, and sometimes I crave sushi. Perhaps once a year. This doesn’t mean I prefer sushi over steak; just that when the stars align on one certain night I would rather have sushi than steak.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 10:02 AM

Posted by Obsidian:

O: Again, strawman. I didn't say that White Men preferred Black Women over White Women; I simply noted the fact that White Men found Black Women physically attractive.

C: You have no way of knowing that Lee *wanted* dark meat and only dark meat. He could have just wanted meat. Perhaps he was just starving in general and would have eaten anything put in front of him. In the DC area, chances are decent that he’d get some dark meat served up.

O: False. We in fact do indeed know what Mr. Lee wanted, on the basis of the ad Ms. Callahan put up. Online Craigslist makes the details of a person's ad quite clear (as in uh, you know, a PIC of the person, among other things?), and so did Ms. Callahan when she posted her ad; she stated quite clearly that she was African American. Mr. Lee could have chosen another Women of which there are quite a few White, Hispanic and Asian in the greater DC area. He didn't. He chose Ms. Callahan instead.

As have quite a few White Men down through American history.

The HBDers are wrong. As per usual. ;)

O.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 10:03 AM

Posted by Chuck:

The HBDers are wrong? How can they be wrong if they haven't talked about it?

Some white men find black women attractive. Some find them attractive *enough* to have sex with. Is that news, and does that dismantle the HBD position? The answer is "No" to both of those questions.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 1:15 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
HBDers such as Half Sigma, Steve Sailer and Roissy, to name a few, have made all manner of commentary that amounts to Black Women being unattractive in aggregate. Not only has the recent facial composite program proven this to be false, we also know from American history this to be false. I am saying that the HBders are wrong in their views along these lines. Black Women are indeed attractive enough to garner considerable attention from White Men, and I presented three famous examples of this in action.

So, YES, it is indeed news. That you refuse to accept this isn't a problem any of us can or should solve.

O.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 1:59 PM

Posted by Chuck:

3 famous examples? And you think that proves your generality? The argument can only be satisfied by making comparisons and considering the attractiveness of black women compared to other women. Yes, white men will find some black women attractive, but the trick is to put that in context.

The proof is in the pudding. Black women get much less love on online dating websites. OKCupid and even Y talk about this a lot. Steve Sailer has also laid out a pretty good case for the reasons that fewer men are attracted to black women (Asian men are the analogous example for men). Comparatively speaking, black women are less desirable, in general. Three cases cannot alter a generality, by definition.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 2:44 PM

Posted by Y:

Yes I have talked about my experience. One guy just stopped messaging when I posted a photo. I also got an influx of messages when I did post a pic.

Also even though BW don't have the same appeal as other races that does not necessarily translate into BW being ugly/unattractive. Which is something many HBDers like to go to. Not having universal appeal does not equate to ugliness
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 5:02 PM

Posted by Chuck:

Y:

fwiw, I've admitted all over the place that I find some black women attractive. I don't think many HBDers say that no black women are attractive.

O is just tilting at windmills. As usual.
Monday, February 14th 2011 @ 11:14 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hi Chuck,
Replies below:

C: 3 famous examples? And you think that proves your generality? The argument can only be satisfied by making comparisons and considering the attractiveness of black women compared to other women. Yes, white men will find some black women attractive, but the trick is to put that in context.

O: But Chuck, I already did: "The standard line in HBD circles is that Black Women are the scourge of the Earth, who no White Man would be caught dead with, when everything we know about American history says something else; the vast majority of "miscegenation" took place as the result of sexual unions consisting of an African slave Woman and a White Man, sometimes a slave master, sometimes not, and which results in the fact that just about every American descendent of African slaves has somewhere between 10 and 20% White ancestry." What part of that don't you understand?

C: The proof is in the pudding. Black women get much less love on online dating websites. OKCupid and even Y talk about this a lot. Steve Sailer has also laid out a pretty good case for the reasons that fewer men are attracted to black women (Asian men are the analogous example for men). Comparatively speaking, black women are less desirable, in general. Three cases cannot alter a generality, by definition.

O: I never made such a case. What I said was that clearly, White Men found Black Women attractive. That's all I said.

C: fwiw, I've admitted all over the place that I find some black women attractive. I don't think many HBDers say that no black women are attractive.

O: False; you just contradicted yourself by mentioning Sailer above, and there's Half Sigma, Roissy, OneSTDV, etc, et al. Shall I recount even more names?

C: O is just tilting at windmills. As usual.

O: Says the Man who has made what, at least a dozen comments on this thread alone spinning himself into a denial of the facts frenzy...

Whew

O.
Tuesday, February 15th 2011 @ 1:13 AM

Posted by La Reyna:

Chuckie has been using strawman's tactics to deny that White men have always been attractive to Black women for centuries. I mean, the basic fact of heterosexuality is the attraction of the opposite sex regardless of race and that men have always seek variety regardless of ideology. Thomas Jefferson, president Van Buren's vice president Robert Mentor Johnson, Strom Thurmond, Patrick DeWine, all of them have long-term relationships with Black women.

Here's a brief Wikipedia fact on Richard Mentor Johnson's relationship with his Black common-law wife:

"Family tradition holds that Johnson broke off an early marital engagement because of his mother's contention that his bride-to-be was not worthy of the family. Johnson vowed revenge for his mother's interference, and when his father died, he began a long-term relationship with Julia Chinn, a slave left to him by his father.[11] Chinn was a light-skinned octoroon; nevertheless, the law considered her a Negro which prevented Johnson from marrying her.[12] Throughout his career, Johnson treated Chinn as his common law wife.[12] When Johnson was away from his Kentucky estate, Chinn was given free rein in his business affairs.

Julia Chinn died in an outbreak of cholera in the summer of 1833. Following his wife's death, Johnson engaged in a relationship with another family slave.[13] When she left him for another man, Johnson had her captured and sold at auction. He then began a relationship with her sister.[13][14]

Johnson and Chinn had two daughters, Adaline Chinn Johnson and Imogene Chinn Johnson.[12] Johnson saw to it that both girls were provided an education. Both daughters married white men, whereupon Johnson gave them large tracts of land from his own holdings.[10] Adeline Chinn had no children, and died in 1836.[15] Despite Johnson's treatment of Imogene as a daughter, she did not inherit his estate.[15] Upon Johnson's death, the Fayette County Court ruled that "he left no widow, children, f
Tuesday, February 15th 2011 @ 9:51 PM

Posted by La Reyna:

father, or mother living" and divided his estate between his living brothers, John and Henry."

This has been documented in history archives in America. I don't understand WNs and HBDers lunacy in denying that history. Don't they go out in public often? Don't they know that most African Americans are physically diverse because of the racist one-drop rule? I mean, these guys have a problem with sexuality, a major problem with women, and a very big problem with Black people. It's puzzling to me.

La Reyna
Tuesday, February 15th 2011 @ 9:52 PM

Posted by La Reyna:

People like OneSTDV, Roissy, Half Sigma, Jared Taylor, Steve Sailer, Lawrence Auster, etc., do have major issues within themselves. They're mad that we're the majority and they're not. They're mad that their vision of beauty is unrealistic, that they pine for the days of Stepford Wife/Barbie/Playboy Bunny type of All-American beauty when they see more and more Black women are represented in the media and it's not just the Halle Berry/Alicia Keys types. It's Fantasia, Gabby Sihibe, Mary J. Blige, Michelle Obama, Alek Wek type of Black women they claim to think they're unattractive. Social values and natural values will always clash when it comes to basic sexual attraction.
Tuesday, February 15th 2011 @ 9:58 PM

Posted by La Reyna:

They need to look around and see all kinds of Black people with White male ancestry:

Ciara, Faith Evans, El Debarge, Essie Mae Washington, Tom Joyner, Rev. Wright, Colin Powell, Michael Powell, Prince, G.K. Butterfield, Charles Rangel, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Mel Watt, David Patterson, Condoleeza Rice, Whitney Houston, Chilli of TLC, Bryant Gumbel, Benjamin Jealous, and many others. You cannot sit her and deny the creole nature of America.

My two cents,

La Reyna
Tuesday, February 15th 2011 @ 10:07 PM

Posted by La Reyna:

Chucky boy,

Obsidian isn't making anything complicated when he wrote this piece. It's you that are making it complicated by denying it. Go home and meditate on this before posting.

La Reyna
Tuesday, February 15th 2011 @ 10:25 PM

Posted by Chuck:

La Raza:

"Obsidian isn't making anything complicated when he wrote this piece."

Which is precisely the problem. He generalized and dumbed it down. Probably just for you.
Tuesday, February 15th 2011 @ 10:43 PM

Posted by La Reyna:

Hey Chuck, you racist bigot, stop it with your namecalling. You have a big problem with White men dating Black and Latina women. Everytime Obsidian talks about it, you go pull a John Mayer. What you said about Black women is racist and sexist and I'm very sick of your hatred of Blacks in general. If you don't like it, then don't come to this website with your hate. Okay.

La Reyna
Wednesday, February 16th 2011 @ 10:32 AM

Posted by La Reyna:

And another thing, Terry is Black and she's married to a Black man, so how could she be a miscegenist? Think about it, bigot.

La Reyna

It's La Reyna, not La Raza. Get it right, okay?
Wednesday, February 16th 2011 @ 10:38 AM

Posted by La Reyna:

More on Richard Mentor Johnson:

Richard Mentor Johnson (October 17, 1780 or 1781 – November 19, 1850) was the ninth Vice President of the United States, serving in the administration of Martin Van Buren. He was the only vice-president ever elected by the United States Senate under the provisions of the Twelfth Amendment. Johnson also represented Kentucky in the U.S. House of Representatives and Senate and began and ended his political career in the Kentucky House of Representatives.

Johnson was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 1806. He became allied with fellow Kentuckian Henry Clay as a member of the War Hawks faction that favored war with Britain in 1812. At the outset of the War of 1812, Johnson was commissioned a colonel in the army. He and his brother James served under William Henry Harrison in Upper Canada. Johnson participated in the Battle of the Thames where some maintain that he personally killed the Shawnee chief Tecumseh, a fact he later used to his political advantage.
Wednesday, February 16th 2011 @ 11:59 AM

Posted by La Reyna:

Following the war, Johnson returned to the House of Representatives, and was elevated to the Senate in 1819 to fill the seat vacated by John J. Crittenden. As his constituency grew, his interracial relationship with a mulatto slave named Julia Chinn was more widely criticized, damaging to his political ambition. Unlike other leaders who had relationships with their slaves, Johnson was open about his relationship with Chinn, and regarded her as his common law wife. He freely claimed Chinn's two daughters as his own, much to the consternation of some in his constituency. The relationship was a major factor in the 1829 election that cost him his seat in the Senate, but his district returned him to the House the following year.
__________________
Do HBDers have anything to say about that?

La Reyna(Stephanie): The Black Sista, not Hispanic, okay?
Wednesday, February 16th 2011 @ 12:01 PM

Posted by La Reyna:

One other thing,

There was an arrangement called Placage where wealthy White men arrange to meet and set up household for Black women. Here's the Wikipedia definition:

Plaçage was a recognized extralegal system in which white French and Spanish and later Creole men entered into the equivalent of common-law marriages with women of African, Indian and white (European) Creole descent. The term comes from the French placer meaning "to place with". The women were not legally recognized as wives, but were known as placées; their relationships were recognized among the free people of color as mariages de la main gauche or left-handed marriages. Many were often quarteronnes or quadroons, the offspring of a European and a mulatto, but plaçage did occur between whites and mulattoes and blacks. The system flourished throughout the French and Spanish colonial periods, and apparently reached its zenith during the latter, between 1769 and 1803. It was not limited to Louisiana, but also flourished in the cities of Natchez and Biloxi, Mississippi; Mobile, Alabama; St. Augustine and Pensacola, Florida; as well as Saint-Domingue (present-day Haiti). Plaçage, however, drew most of its fame—and notoriety—from its open application in New Orleans.

That undercuts HBD lies about the attractiveness of Black women, eh?

La Reyna
Wednesday, February 16th 2011 @ 12:11 PM

Posted by La Reyna(Stephanie):

Please read the above article for yourself at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pla%C3%A7age

I'm just getting sick and tired of the lies and myths of the whole racist HBD movement. I'm just so sick of it!

Stephanie-La Reyna
Wednesday, February 16th 2011 @ 12:13 PM

Posted by Alte:

In my mind, the fact that black women statistically have had more sex partners is a result of starting sex earlier, which is a result of nurture, not nature.

Not just that. It can be explained by the lower marriage and higher divorce rate, and the high never-married rate. White women are usually eventually taken off the market and have less female-competition for each man (because of lower incarceration and unemployment rates among white men). The Economist wrote about the promiscuity-raising potential of a skewed marriage market:
http://www.economist.com/node/15867956?story_id=15867956

Excerpt:
IMAGINE that the world consists of 20 men and 20 women, all of them heterosexual and in search of a mate. Since the numbers are even, everyone can find a partner. But what happens if you take away one man? You might not think this would make much difference. You would be wrong, argues Tim Harford, a British economist, in a book called “The Logic of Life”. With 20 women pursuing 19 men, one woman faces the prospect of spinsterhood. So she ups her game. Perhaps she dresses more seductively. Perhaps she makes an extra effort to be obliging. Somehow or other, she “steals” a man from one of her fellow women. That newly single woman then ups her game, too, to steal a man from someone else. A chain reaction ensues. Before long, every woman has to try harder, and every man can relax a little.

They note that working-class white women are increasingly facing a similar disparity, and are "upping their game" (i.e. acting more slutty) to compensate.
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