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Friday, December 21st 2012

4:18 PM

Alt-Right Seeks To Scapegoat Black/Brown Men For Gun Deaths In USA - What Else Is New?

I must apologize to guest O-Files contributor Han Solo, for I promised him that I would be posting a very good field report of his today; but as you might imagine, the events of the past week has diverted my attention and focus, and given the sheer enormity of the whole thing, I'll be remaining on this issue for the next few days at least, as I have quite a bit to say that needs - that must - be said. 

So, with that said, we return to our friend(?) Chuck Ross of GLPiggy fame, who today, links to a piece written by prominent Alt-Right blogger Vox Day, "Why US gun deaths are high". Key quotes, folks:

"The second reason is also related to demographics.  The specific question that was asked was why the USA has a higher rate of gun homicides, 2.97 per 100,000 population than Canada, at only 0.51 per 100,000.  After all, the USA and Canada are very similar countries, are they not?  No, they are not.  Only 3.5 percent of the Canadian population is African and Latin American.  28.9 percent of the US population is African and Latin American.  Does this make a difference?  The chart below demonstrates that this demographic difference is not only significant, but conclusive...

There were even fewer guns per capita in the two Latin countries, 11.5 percent, and in the two African countries, 8.3 percent, than Canada's 30.8 percent, France's 31.2 percent, or Germany's 30.3 percent.  And yet, the gun deaths per capita in all four African and Latin countries were much higher than either Canada or the USA; on average, they were four times higher than the US rate despite there being far fewer guns, and guns per capita, in all of them.  Nor did I cherry-pick any outliers; most African nations don't even report these figures, and based on the news reports, countries such as Congo and Nigeria are even more murderously violent than South Africa and Zimbabwe.  In Latin America alone, there are six countries with higher per capita gun death rates than Brazil, which is six times higher than the USA...

If lower gun death rates are a goal, it is clear that reducing the amount of guns will not help, and may even make the matter considerably worse by disarming the law-abiding population and rendering it helpless against the lawless population.  The only way to significantly reduce the amount of gun deaths is to repatriate the immigrants who come from countries where people are disproportionately inclined to shoot other people dead.  Since most Americans presently appear to prefer higher violent crime rates to stopping immigration, much less reducing the percentage of the non-European/Asian/Arab population through deportation, logic dictates that if gun control proponents are successful in their attempts to reduce the guns per capita rate, the gun homicides per capita rate will rise in proportion to the percentage of the African/Latin population in the general population."

Got that? The reason why 26 WHITE Women and children died last week; the reason why dozens of largely WHITE people died earlier this year at a movie theatre in Colorado; and the reason why upwards of 100 WHITE teenagers met a bloodsoaked end in Olso, was all due to having too many guntoting Darkies in White Lands. 

Now, before anyone out there starts sending my hatemail, no one is more aware of gun violence on the streets of urban America more than me. Thus far, no one - not me, not anyone else in the media, not President Obama himself - has ever denied that urban gun violence isn't a problem, and a huge one at that. 

But isn't it just a weebit fascinating that the Alt-Right, when they can get up the gumption to address the clearly depraved monsters in their midst (read: White Males With Problems), just happen to do it in a manner that would be identified, rightly, as deeply intellectually dishonest and highly disengenuous in any other context? Of the more than 60 mass shootings over the past three decades, some 44 of them have been committed by White Males - and when you have ads like these marketed to said White Males (name me all the gangbangers who use Bushmasters as their go-to weapon of choice? I'll wait...), well, it all just makes one go, Hmm...

Clearly, White Men have a serious problem, and clearly, they simply refuse to address it, as I made clear to Chuckie earlier today via email:

"No, Chuck. No. We have a clear and present pattern presenting itself here, and you and your Alt-Right buddies flatout refuse to address it. You'll kindly recall my utter takedown of you, the now defunct Ferd, etc, re; the Anders Breivik issue; you'll also recall that I said, last month, that we could expect more Marginal White Males to chimpout in the face of a changing landscape in which they simply cannot keep up in. Lanza is the umpteenth White Guy who's shot up the place - some half a dozen this year alone - and unlike shootings in the 'hood, these guys takeout mass numbers of people with them when they go postal. So, we simply must ask - why are so many White Guys flipping out and shooting up the place? If you/them had an ounce of intellectual honesty about you, you actually would address such a question; but it is clear that none of you do not. You seek to scapegoat such a horrific series of events such as this week, and earlier this year, and attempt to shift the blame and conversation onto them dastardly Darkies, when everyone with one good eye knows that something is seriously wrong with you White Boys, and it's high time we addressed it head-on.Such a bitch move is the hallmark of a Coward. Shame on you, Chuck. Shame. 

Too bad you and your Alt-Right buds aren't Man enough to take the issue on. But fear not - I most definitely will.

Stay tuned..."

Do you want more? Here's that intrepid White Man Blogger, Vox Day, advising his fellow WND readers on how to respond to calls of reason with regard to getting Bushmasters out of the hands of depraved White Guys:

"Don’t give them an inch. Cut them no slack. Punch back twice as hard. When they bring the knife of emotional blackmail to the argument, draw your .50 caliber Desert Eagle of facts, logic and history and blow them away without mercy."

And they wonder why the Manosphere is regarded as a bunch of f*cking loons? 

Really?

A number of my readers, online and off, have asked me: Obsidian, why do you waste so much time and energy on people who clearly have a disengenuous agenda? This is a very good question, and here's my response:

Because history has shown us, again and again - that Evil - or in this case, downright Foolishness - can only exist, when Good Men, do nothing. By chin-checking these fools in the public square, I am letting them know that their days of just being able to say ridiculous crap with impunity are over. They sh*t all over our cherished freedoms in the name of "keepin' it real" - yea, like Chris Rock said, keepin' it real DUMB. These knuckleheads aren't the next George Washingtons or Patrick Henrys; shoot, they can barely get laid and make a life for themselves, let alone be the standard bearers of freedom or liberty. They are not fit to participate in reasoned and intellectually honest discussion of the issues of the day, and should be roundly shouted down until they sitdown and STFU. 

As an American citizen, I am doing my part to keep the public square a decent place to be for people who want to have rational discourse - and I ask all those of like mind reading this to join in my cause. The inmates have run the asylum long enough - it's way past due that sanity returned to the American stage. 

And I'm very pleased to see that the American People aren't taking this crap off of these crazies anymore.

More to follow - count on it.

Now adjourn your arses...

The Obsidian
44 comment(s).

Posted by Daniel:

You've got it flipped upside down, completely. Mass shootings account for an insignificant number of gun violence deaths, vs. the total number of gun homicides. Yet, the only time the media ever cares about gun violence is when one of these socially dramatic but statistically insignificant circuses rears its head. Please note the lack of outcry when another crazy white kid went nuts with a crossbow a couple weeks ago, killing three on a defenseless campus. Note the lack of outcry when Obama drone-slayed that many kids in Pakistan last month alone. Note the lack of outcry when far more significant numbers of blacks and hispanics are victims of guns that can never be eliminated no matter how frequently they are banned.

You can't fight the facts. Blacks and hispanics worldwide have less access to guns and are more likely to die from them than any white.

That's the problem you are missing. After all, we can take anyone with an IQ over 85 and a high school diploma, and train them to return fire on a threat in defense of U.S. government interests, yet can't do the same with our alleged best and brightest specialist teachers? That school indeed had a gun problem: not nearly enough of them in the hands of able bodied adults.

Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 5:05 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

I just wrote this to Chuck via email:

"More Examples Of White Male Alt-Right Refusal To Take Personal Responsibility

Steve Sailer, whom you just quoted on you blog earlier, has up to posts that beggars belief:

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/12/gun-control-down-through-decades.html

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/12/how-many-homicides-is-quarter-century.html

You just can't make this stuff up.

This, in the wake of yet another mass shooting at the hands of a White Male, who just happened to kill fellow White people, and in "sparsely populated areas of the country", no less. I've been reading Sailer since the late 90s - not once, has he addressed, head on and without apology or excuse, the very real problem of White Male Dysfunction along these lines - again: in the past three decades, more than 60 mass shootings, 44 of them committed by White Males, often armed with weapons like the Bushmaster rifle that, per its manufacturors, makes on feel more like a Man. He won't address it for the same reason(s) Vox Day won't, and you won't, and Roissy/Heartiste won't - because your audiences want someone else to blame for your/their problems in life.

But the gig is up; like what happened back in Nov, people aren't buying it anymore, least of all White Women. Very interesting that this problem will be solved and put to bed by a Black Man.

I'm sure the White Guy Alt-Right will be elated."

:)

O.
Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 5:16 PM

Posted by gregg:

Guns don't kill people bullets with 500 ft-lbs of energy or better do unless you get a head shot.
Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 5:42 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

@Daniel:
"You've got it flipped upside down, completely. Mass shootings account for an insignificant number of gun violence deaths, vs. the total number of gun homicides. Yet, the only time the media ever cares about gun violence is when one of these socially dramatic but statistically insignificant circuses rears its head."

O: Hey Dan, just you try to run that "statistically insignificant" rap to the parents of those slaughtered kids up there in Newtown, and holla back the results, OK? This is a MAJOR issue - let's try this again: over the past three decades, more than SIXTY mass shootings in the country, 44 of them having been committed by White Guys. I think that's pretty darned significant.

"Please note the lack of outcry when another crazy white kid went nuts with a crossbow a couple weeks ago, killing three on a defenseless campus."

O: Links, please? Seems like the media did a pretty good job covering the Aurora massacre, the Sikh temple shootings, and the shoot em up that went down out there in Oregon...

"Note the lack of outcry when Obama drone-slayed that many kids in Pakistan last month alone."

O: What does foreign policy have to do with anything? Stay on topic please?

"Note the lack of outcry when far more significant numbers of blacks and hispanics are victims of guns that can never be eliminated no matter how frequently they are banned."

O: Again - you won't get no argument out of me when it comes to the daily bloodletting on the urban streets of America - but then, no one ever denied that this wasn't an issue either. Nice strawman, though.

Can we get back to the White Guy Problems now?

"You can't fight the facts. Blacks and hispanics worldwide have less access to guns and are more likely to die from them than any white."
Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 6:33 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

O: Again, nonsequitur. We are discussing the Bushmaster "Man Card" problem White Guys have. That is the purpose of this discussion. Now - don't you agree that White Guys do indeed have such a problem/issue? If so/not, why? Please explain? Feel free to elaborate.

"That's the problem you are missing. After all, we can take anyone with an IQ over 85 and a high school diploma, and train them to return fire on a threat in defense of U.S. government interests, yet can't do the same with our alleged best and brightest specialist teachers? That school indeed had a gun problem: not nearly enough of them in the hands of able bodied adults."

O: Uh-Oh, you're not one of those NRA gun nuts are you? In case you haven't heard, LaPierre's "plan" to arm the schools would cost upwards of $20B USD - and exactly how are we supposed to pay for this, in a time when we're all about to go over the Fiscal Cliff?

SMH...

O.
Friday, December 21st 2012 @ 6:34 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

70% of the US population are whites. Whites committed 71% of the mass murders. The reason why more mass murders are committed by whites is because there are more whites. See my analysis below.

So whites aren't committing a larger share of the mass murders than their total share of the population. However, they are committing a higher percentage of mass murders than they are committing conventional or low-number murders. So, I think that, yes, there is something we need to analyze in why whites and Asians are committing mass murders at a higher rate than they are low-number murders (you do have a point there Obsidian) but it's not as stark either.

Analysis:

Here's the population breakdown of the USA:

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

Asian 5.0%
Black 13.1%
Hispanic/Latino 16.7%
White persons not Hispanic 63.4%
Natives 1.2%
Pacific 0.2%
Reporting two races 2.3%

So, we see that whites are about 63% now but were a somewhat higher % during the last 30 years. 44 out of 62 mass killings were by whites (http://www.standard.net/stories/2012/12/21/why-are-majority-random-mass-killers-white-males). That gives 44/62=71%.

Next point. The average white-only population % over the last 30 years was higher than now, since especially hispanics have grown.

In 1980, whites (white + hispanics) were 83.1%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American In 1980 there were 14.5 million hispanics (http://www.nytimes.com/1988/09/07/us/us-hispanic-population-is-up-34-since-1980.html) and 226.5 million Americans so the hispanic % in 1980 was 6.4%. Subtracting this from 83.1% gives 76.7% white (no hispanic) in 1980. Let's average the 1980 and 2011 white % to get a rough estimate of the average # of whites over the last 30 years.

(76.7%+63%)/2=70%

So 70% of the US population are whites. Whites committed 71% of the mass murders. The reason why more mass murders are committed by whites is because there are more whites.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 2:59 AM

Posted by random a:

we don't handle mental illness in this country very well at all. too many sick bastards out there. that's my biggest issue with what happened in newton, boulder, clackamas, etc. before gun control, have to consider how we're handling (or not handling) mental illness.

you wanna play numbers: you said above 44 of 60+ shooters were white. that implies that 16+ were not white. i'm not minimizing what white shooters have done, but it's not wise to limit the discussion to sick white men, that just plays up the racial divide when you know damn well there are non-white sick men as well and the problems of our society affect them too. if you want to step back and divorce yourself from race, just look at it as pathologies that cross racial lines, i'll show you great britain. nasty white underclass there that shows all the typical criminal characteristics of the black and hispanic underclass here. i know what i speak of, i lived in london for two years. finding out about this told me these pathologies while prominent in the american black underclass are definitely not limited to them and in fact are percolating through non-blacks as well. in other words, the problems are bigger than what's happening to blacks. but of course you're all about the contrast so you do not want to go there. i'm not your friend, but we're in this dirty pool together whether you realize it or not.

maybe it is a little ridiculous to arm at least one person at every last dang school across the land. on the other hand, the local governments and school districts should have the freedom to determine that for themselves. i don't think it's a coincidence that gun-free zones seem to be targeted so often, imo, we need to dump that concept pronto, let the shooters know they might get resisted with like force. like that guy in the clackamas mall.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 3:16 AM

Posted by HanSolo:

Whites averaged about 70% of the population over the last 30 years and committed about 70% of the mass murders so I don't really see it is a WHITE thing any more or less than that the USA has been 70% white over the last 30 years. The interesting thing though is that since whites commit a much lower % of the total number of murders as compared to their population then why are the few dozen that go postal doing so (Asians seem to be doing so too)?

This link http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm shows that whites (and this includes hispanics) committed 45.8% of the murders from 1976-2005 (yes, these years are off by 5 years from the last 30 years but close enough to give an idea). If you subtract out the hispanic murderers from this then it will probably take it down to very roughly 40% are non-hispanic whites. So, ~70% of the mass murderers are white compared to ~40% of the overall murderers.

So, it is interesting that whites make up a higher % of mass murderers than they do of regular murderers (and that deserves attention) but to say that the phenomenon of mass murder is more white than any other race doesn't seem accurate. It seems that Asians are contributing quite highly relative to their % of the population (but this is just based on the recent two so I would need to look at the race of the 18 mass murders that were not by whites to really see who committed those).

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2

This gives the names of the 62 mass killers. Unfortunately it doesn't give a photo of everyone. I've identified 7 so far as black but you can't tell by their names so I've looked up pictures of everyone (you'd need 8 to have them be equal to their 13% of the population, there might be 1 more black since I didn't google every name, so blacks seem to be contributing nearly as much as the whites are). What does stand out is that there are 6 Asians (~10% of the 62) but they're only 5% of US pop.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:19 AM

Posted by HanSolo:

Typo: I did not google everyone's picture so there may be more than 7 blacks in the list of 62.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:55 AM

Posted by HanSolo:

So, Obsidian, since blacks committed at least 7 of the 62 (nearly in line with their population %, as was the case with whites) that blacks also, to quote you, "have a serious problem?"

BTW, not trying to pick a fight, I just want to make sure you're being intellectually consistent and honest in the face of the facts I've presented. ;)

Cheers.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:01 AM

Posted by HanSolo:

So, Obsidian, since blacks committed at least 7 of the 62 mass murders, will you admit that blacks also, to quote you, "have a serious problem?"

Of course we can get into when they were committed, number of victims, and so on, but just based on the last 30 years, I don't see a statistically different rate in white and black mass murderers when compared to their respective fractions of the population.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:05 AM

Posted by HanSolo:

Okay, upon googling more names of the 62 mass murderers, I find a total of 10 black men. That makes 16% and slightly higher than their percentage of the population. Percentage of latino mass murderers in the US is much less than their population. Asian much higher.

Here's a website that shows the photos of 8 of the black mass murderers.

http://www.vdare.com/articles/the-fulford-file-jezebel?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+vdareblog+(VDARE.com%3A+Blog+Articles)

1 is shown on the Mother Jones page already:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map?page=2

And, #10, Silvio Leyva was a Cuban-born black man.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:55 AM

Posted by kh123:

Daniel: "Note the lack of outcry when Obama drone-slayed that many kids in Pakistan last month alone."

O: What does foreign policy have to do with anything?


Nothing apparently, other than the fact that killing kids with a larger, more elaborate gun is quite alright when a certain POTUS declares it necessary for reasons of... what is it this year... National security... no, wait: Social justice.

Ultimately, in the end, if it doesn't sit well, you can just tell those Afghanis that the deaths they suffered were just the inevitable statistical outliers that go along with nation building, and that despite the fiscal cliff we're going over while occupying their country, here's a cash compensation for your loss.* (There's your 20 billion in funding for armed guards at schools.)


[*This isn't a joke either; check out The Battle for Marjah - there's a full version of it currently on Youtube.]
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 7:26 AM

Posted by Kickass:

Hi. Would you be so kind, since you take the highest exception to the post by Vox Day, to point out one or more of the statistics that he used in error. In other words, you keep saying you don't like what he wrote but you have not said what, if anything, he wrote was an error.

So please, fact check away. If Vox is a liar we would all love to see you catch him. Thanks.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 8:53 AM

Posted by Y:

I wrote an entire comment but of course I deleted it by accident.

Ok so, bring up Black/Brown violence in the wake of the Newtown Massacre is something of a red herring because the people who typically commit this type of mass murder are not NAMs. Its usually a disgruntled, middle/upper class, young, white male. No doubt Black/Hispanic gun violence is an issue however when talking about Newton its off-topic and out of place.

Its also disingenuous of the ALT-Right to bring up NAM gun violence because, lets be frank, they really don't give a shit about NAMs duking it out and the 'collateral damage' that results because its not happening to them, in their suburbans. Why is it that the Newtown shootings has these people deflecting gun violence in a white suburb onto people that are a world away? All evidence suggest, if a suburbanite, white or otherwise, is going to be a victim of gun violence it will be most likely at the hands of another middle/upper class suburbanite, usually an white guy in his 20s with 'mental illness' (aka the new catchall phrase for people who's paranoia and hate has consumed them to the point of murder). These people aren't doing themselves any favors by laying blame at the feet of NAMs. These massacres are not the result of dope slanging gone wrong or gang warfare, its a result of a culture that teaches white suburbanites to fear all that is foreign to them to the point they ignore the very real dangers living among them. With this mentality the body count will only continue to rise

I also find it pretty funny how Alt-righter have been successful at avoiding any extracurricular contact with NAMs (via white flight, private/white-washed public schools for their kids, highly controlled social circles) yet when something/someone in the in-group fucks up in Whitetopia they blame it on NAMs who are nowhere to be found.

Amazing!
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 11:42 AM

Posted by HanSolo:

@Y

Did you not see my comments just now?

10 of the 62 mass murders in the study Obsidian cited were black, that's 16% and higher than their share of the population. 5 were Asian, that's 10% and 2x their share of the population. 44 were white and that's 71%, in line with the average white % of the population over the last 30 years. Actually, the white % may be a little lower because they lumped in some latino and Middle Eastern men as white.

So, whites committed the majority of the mass murders because they are the similar majority of the population. The really interesting thing is that Asians were so high a % and latinos so low.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 11:50 AM

Posted by Y:

Also, people pushing the teachers and guns thing are crazy. CRAZY. With the quality of primarily and secondary education in the US taking a nose-dive the last thing teachers need to be worrying about is learning how to shoot an M6. Even if our education wasn't falling apart we still shouldn't have teachers armed with guns for reasons that are obvious.

1. its the teacher's job to teach, not play bodyguard

2. a person with basic training in how to shoot a pistol is no match for a man that comes into a classroom with at least 3 assault rifles and a shoot to kill mentality.

3. Its to expensive of a policy to execute

I swear NRA and its fans will latch onto anything to avoid a meaningful discussion on this topic. The gig is up, and the American people are not taking it anymore.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 11:54 AM

Posted by Obsidian:

@Han Solo:
First, I must thank you for taking the time out to post up such very useful information. Second, I must also make clear that I have never denied that urban America (read: Black and Hispanic) has a serious gun violence problem; indeed if anything, I am far too familiar with it than I'd like to be. And I have plans to discuss this in detail in the coming days, so please stay tuned.

In the meantime though, I think Y's comments in response to your own, really sums it all up. I'd be very interested in seeing what, if anything, you have to say to her in rebuttal?

O.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 2:07 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

Hey Obs, I am all for reducing all kinds of murders, mass ones and low-number. I think that something does need to be done to help the mentally ill or get the off the streets. Also, I'm for removing the gun-show loophole and so on. I don't think arming all teachers is wise but putting in an armed guard with a metal detector and only one entrance or having one or two teachers or administration trained for gun use to have a gun might provide enough of a deterrence. Have to weigh that against the risk of them going nuts and using the gun but I think overall it might be helpful.

I didn't see Y's comment as a response to me. In fact, Y didn't mention me or my points.

I am not trying to deflect from the horrendous things these 44 or so white mass murderers did and that a solution needs to be found. I just wanted to point out that it's not a white problem per se and that blacks and Asians are doing their fair share or more too.

I also think that more attention does need to be given to the black and latino murder rates (without ignoring the white mass murderers) because it's black and latinos that suffer the most when a brotha or a latino uses a gun for murder. I personally think more attention should be given to the black on black and latino on latino murders so that something positive is done about it and not just ignoring it.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 2:31 PM

Posted by UnendingImprovement:

"Of the more than 60 mass shootings over the past three decades, some 44 of them have been committed by White Males - and when you have ads like these marketed to said White Males (name me all the gangbangers who use Bushmasters as their go-to weapon of choice? I'll wait...), well, it all just makes one go, Hmm..."

Hmm...

You do realize that that's actually pretty in line with the percentage of the population that was white over the last 30 years. If we really want to dig into the stats, it is interesting to note that Asian-Americans have conducted twice as many of the mass shootings as their population would imply, so Mass shootings are no more a "White" problem than Vox's idea proves that gun violence is a "Black and Hispanic" problem. By the way, you do realize that gangsters certainly use automatic rifles, which a Bushmaster IS NOT. Hint, they often use AK-47s, which they call "choppers" and which they often obtain via the same vectors by which they obtain their drugs.

In short, adjourn your ass.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 2:50 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

@UnendingImprovement:
Thanks for stopping by and joining the conversation! Please allow me to address some of what you've said.

Are you suggesting that Blacks and Hispanics makeup the vast majority of "gangsters"? Because if so, I surely would like to see some stats on that. In no way am I denying that Blacks/Hispanics don't make use of assault weapons like the AK47 - indeed, I make this point clear in my latest post - but its been well documented that most of the time, gun deaths that take place in the hood are done by way of semi-auto pistols, not automatic rifles like the aforementioned AK47.

O.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 3:44 PM

Posted by kh123:

Might be interested that your article's been featured over at Vox Popoli. Here's a link, if html proper works here.

Seeing that some of the same comments have made their way here, I'll drop a couple that I thought were pertinent:

- "Most gang members get their guns from the same place they get their drugs - so unless and until America can stem the tide of drugs, those same roads for weapons will be open. And guess how the war on drugs is going?"

- "For my own part, I am confused. Does this Obsidian truly wish the only guns to be in the hands of the white police, who regularly arrest his kind for "Driving While Black"?"

- "As one who has heard too many times a black politician shouting "We will fix our own house," and is waiting for the no-go zones to disappear from a number of major US cities and enclaves, it's a shame Obsidian's thinking brain is not engaged, only his racial offense gland. Of course, he'd learn that the operational end of the race hustle political sales machine is behind things like the three generation destruction of American black society and devolution from one of the most moral."

- "The State has murdered and continues to murder thousands around the world. It murdered thousands of men, women and children in Serbia, Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan and will soon murder more in Syria and Iran. The State is a killing machine run by psychopaths. Yet, like Waco or “Fast and Furious”, when The State kills, it isn’t news because it doesn’t serve the agenda.

For the hypocrites, when The State drone kills the “Darkies” attending a wedding in Pakistan, it isn’t news, its collateral damage."



.....
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:28 PM

Posted by kh123:

...Proper link to the Vox article.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:31 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

@kh123:
"Might be interested that your article's been featured over at Vox Popoli. Here's a link, if html proper works here."

O: Yes, and I left a comment in the discussion thread. You might have missed it. In any event, I'll be responding to both VD and Chuck on the morrow, so stay tuned...

"Seeing that some of the same comments have made their way here, I'll drop a couple that I thought were pertinent:"

O: If you're trying to get me to further muddy the waters here, by attempting to bring in foreign policy issues and questions into what is clearly a domestic matter, you might as well stop wasting your time right now. Nor am I stanning in any way for Obama; indeed, anyone who knows me knows that I've had quite a few areas of deep disagreement with him. What I want all of you cats who claim to be about "saving Western civ" to do, is actually address a huge looming problem that is right in your midst, and thus far, NONE of you are willing to do so. That, I find utterly fascinating.



O.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:33 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

@Y and Obs

10 of the 62 were blacks. Why aren't you acknowleding this?

However, I think that large attention should be given to the white mass killers since they perform a portion of the mass killings in line with their % of the population but do not commit a comparable % of the low-number killings. So, something is clearly off with these white mass killers. So, I give you a half point there.

Where I take a half point away is that you are not recognizing that 16% of the mass killers in the list of 62 were black and that is slightly higher than their roughly 12.5% population over the last 30 years. Granted, this is a lower % than the % of low-N murders that blacks commit so, again, something interesting is happening so that blacks commit comparatively less mass murders than they do low-n murders.

In light of some people just saying it's mostly whites committing the mass murders and ignoring the fact that blacks do them just as much as a share of their population and Asians 2x their % of the population then I call bullshit. Let's address all the mass murderers and not just blame one group or another.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:35 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

@Han Solo:
"@Y and Obs

10 of the 62 were blacks. Why aren't you acknowleding this?"

O: (1) Because neither Y nor I, ever denied such a thing (for example, have you heard either of us attempt to explain away, say, Omar Thornton - or Colin Ferguson?); and (2) Because it was WHITE ALT-RIGHT GUYS who made this into a racial issue, per the links I've provided in this post. It was they who went there first and foremost - so why aren't YOU going over to Vox Day's blog and asking him why he's spilling all kinds of squid ink instead of addressing, head on and without apology, the FACT that clearly, White Guys have a serious problem here - one that, in many ways, is far and away more serious than that obtaining with Black Guys? Why is it that Steve Sailer, Vox Day, Half Sigma, Chuck Ross, The Spearhead, etc, et al, so erriely silent on this, Han? Why are they so seemingly intent to discuss anything and everything BUT the most obvious of things here? You tell me...

"However, I think that large attention should be given to the white mass killers since they perform a portion of the mass killings in line with their % of the population but do not commit a comparable % of the low-number killings. So, something is clearly off with these white mass killers. So, I give you a half point there."

O: Here a little, there a little - so again, why is there no one in the whole of the White Guy Alt-Right/HBD/Game/Manosphere, dealing with this, Han? What's up with that?

"Where I take a half point away is that you are not recognizing that 16% of the mass killers in the list of 62 were black and that is slightly higher than their roughly 12.5% population over the last 30 years. Granted, this is a lower % than the % of low-N murders that blacks commit so, again, something interesting is happening so that blacks commit comparatively less mass murders than they do low-n murders."
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:48 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

O: Again, that's because BLACK MEN HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS ISSUE. Black guys didn't shoot up babies last week. Black guys didn't kill up a bunch of White Lady schoolteachers last week. I simply don't know how to make this anymore clear to you or other White Guys, to be frank. And I like you! C'mon Han; give the obtuse routine a rest here. Please?

"In light of some people just saying it's mostly whites committing the mass murders and ignoring the fact that blacks do them just as much as a share of their population and Asians 2x their % of the population then I call bullshit. Let's address all the mass murderers and not just blame one group or another."

O: Again, I wouldn't have any problem in the least with that, IF the rank and file of the White Manosphere wouldn't keep racializing errthang under the sun. Again: Vox Day, Chuck, Auster, Half Sigma, Sailer, etc, et al. Why do they keep doing this, Han? It seems to me that they do this, to KEEP from having to deal with the clear and present fact that White Guys Have Problems.

That Occam's Razor, is a powerful drug... ;)

O.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:49 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

Ok, Obsidian, I am glad that you acknowledge this. I am not defending white guys who don't acknowledge that there is a problem with white mass killers. They should step up and acknowledge them and propose workable solutions (as should we all about all of the various murder problems).
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:52 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

I'm not being obtuse. Obviously the CT shooting was a white guy. Aurora, CO was too. I'm not ignoring that. On HUS, there was talk about this and the impression was that it was virtually only whites doing mass killings. Upon investigation, I found that they are simply in line with their population %. Also, lots of articles and blogs out there saying it's a near white-only problem.

As you know, I go with the data and facts. When I saw you only focusing on the whites being 44/62 mass killers I wanted to see who the rest were. Now that you acknowledge that blacks and Asians are doing it too at rates equal to or higher than whites then I am happy to focus on the issue of why whites are doing mass killings.

I'm not defending the white men's groups but I simply think they are responding in a lawyerly fashion of just presenting their side because they see feminists and the PC media making it seem like it's only whites that do mass killings.
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 4:58 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

Here's an example of Hugo Schwyzer focusing primarily on the white mass killers and also giving the bullshit lie that homicide rates are the same across ethnic groups. This is the kind of bullshit I want stopped:

http://www.rolereboot.org/culture-and-politics/details/2012-07-why-most-mass-murderers-are-privileged-white-men
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:06 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

Here's another example. For the record, I have no problem examining white cultural or racial factors that might be leading whites to doing mass murders.

http://jezebel.com/5969023/have-you-noticed-that-white-dudes-keep-mass-murdering-people?post=55530941
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:26 PM

Posted by kh123:

-----

" If you're trying to get me to further muddy the waters here, by attempting to bring in foreign policy issues and questions into what is clearly a domestic matter,"

Not at all; just curious to see your deftness in being able to philosophically handle what appears to be a rather glaringly comparable situation, between gun deaths domestic and gun (or predator drone) deaths foreign, caused by that self-same Federal Government entity that would presumably enact those gun regulations and measures you're energetically advocating. Is what Leviathan devours overseas (or to put it in domestic perspective: in a cultural or racial enclave other than your own) of no cause for concern; will the fire simply stop once you've set your neighbor's house ablaze, no matter how well-intentioned or seemingly righteous the act was.

As one quote above pointed out, giving power to the police state will only ensure that more of the same abuses will continue seven-fold, with less freedom thrown in the bargain. The Federal Government and legislation is indeed Barrabas - and you're calling for his unrestrained release.



----
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:33 PM

Posted by kh123:

...And that last statement, while seemingly redundant, only underlies the whole point: It would be the equivalent of not only letting Barrabas loose, but of giving him plenipotentiary power to expand his abuses ad infinitum. In effect, the proverbial (and quite real) King of England that the 2nd Amendment was made to keep in check.


-----
Saturday, December 22nd 2012 @ 5:42 PM

Posted by dragnet:

And it has been interesting to witness the reponse of white nationalist-types to Obsidian’s argument. They’ve argued that we should still be focused mostly on black crime because although white men are 70 pct of mass shooters, white people are 70 percent of the population so it’s proportional. Black men, however, commit violence out of proportion with their numbers because they are inferior and inherently violent so that is where we need to focus our attention.
Of course the obvious rejoinder is that if black men are as inherently violent as they say, and white people have a far lower predisposition for violence, surely black men should be commiting mass shootings out of proportion to our numbers as well—but this is not happening. In fact, it is white men who are overperforming, if you will, when it comes to mass shootings. It’s not as if black criminals don’t have access to assault weapons, yet black involvement in crimes of mass death is much lower than their involvement in other kinds of crime. I would really be interested to see what people have to say about this.
Sunday, December 23rd 2012 @ 2:56 PM

Posted by dragnet:

why is your site blocking me from posting?
Sunday, December 23rd 2012 @ 2:57 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

@Dragnet That is interesting that although whites are doing mass killings in line with their portion of the population, that is overperforming when compared to the low-N murders they commit.

The flipside of blacks committing mass murder in line (or slightly higher 10/62=16% vs 12.5% of population over last 30 years) that they are underperforming compared to their low-N murders.
Sunday, December 23rd 2012 @ 9:32 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

Basically, blacks, Middle Easterners, native Americans and whites are performing mass killings in line with their population. Meanwhile latinos and Indian Americans are underperforming, while East Asians are overperforming (6/62=10% vs 5% of the population--or less if Indians are included as part of that 5%).
Sunday, December 23rd 2012 @ 9:37 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

Why isn't it posting?

Basically, blacks, Middle Easterners, native Americans and whites are performing mass killings in line with their population. Meanwhile latinos and people from India are underperforming, while East Asians are overperforming (6/62=10% vs 5% of the population--or less if Indians are included as part of that 5%).
Sunday, December 23rd 2012 @ 10:17 PM

Posted by blackphilo:

"Basically, blacks, Middle Easterners, native Americans and whites are performing mass killings in line with their population."

This type of claim is tedious and diversionary.

We can distinguish "mass" and, say, "hypermass" killings. There is nothing numerically objective about what counts as a "mass" killing (4+). So we can go ahead and assign a significantly contrasting number for what counts as a "hypermass" killing--let's use greater than 10.

This distinction would help to highlight what seems qualitatively different, for instance, about Columbine, Aurora, and Newtown. Of course, we could then run racial comparisons about hypermass killings.

The point, I take it, is clear enough.
Monday, December 24th 2012 @ 3:06 PM

Posted by HanSolo:

Hey, blackphilo, take it up with Obsidian. He's the one that posted the stat about 44/62 being white.
Thursday, December 27th 2012 @ 1:16 AM

Posted by kh123:

Like I said over at Vox Popoli, it'll certainly be interesting to see Obsidian follow up with the FBI statistics for Black male firearms murders being disproportionately high as per their population size, as well as contributing to about half the overall firearm homicides for 2010.

Unless of course, the FBI's also racist, or 2010 was an outlier year for black homicide. Or unless it underlies the whole point that his obsession with firearm-wielding honkeys is in itself racist and statistically innumerate.
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