As to be expected,
my recent post on Stanford Law & Education professor
Ralph Richard Banks and his appearance on the
Jesse Lee Peterson Show got quite a bit of feedback; among them, the thoughts of two ladies,
Jhane Sez and her partner in crime, a newcomer to the O-Files commentariat,
Malia. I find her to be a feisty one, and welcome her aboard!
While I consider Jhane to be a buddy of mine, I have to say, with all due respect, that on this one she's still a ways to go before the she feels the full effect of the Red Pill. Quite honestly, I didn't know she could spin so fast!-the sheer centrifugal forces of her hamster going is a pure sight to behold. On the commute home from the gig earlier this afternoon, I was completely agog reading her and Malia - so much so that I decided that a mere comment couldn't do it justice; this thing merited a post all its own.
So, today, I'm gonna respond point for point to an email response Jhane sent me (theobsidianfiles@hotmail.com; hit me up anytime!) due to difficulties posting it to the blog, and I want to respond to a bit of what Malia's said over the past day or two as well.
Let's do it...
*Quoting me from my original post*: Why can't Women simply do the same? Why all the need for books, blogs, articles, seminars, workshops, etc, et al?
JS: Malia’s point is that successful people strive to be successful, even against great odds, which is how most of the women in question became educated and advanced in their careers.
O: Malia's point was, like much of her "responses" little more than red herrings. Please read again what I said above - I am asking WHY can't Women simply accept the things that Men, ALL MEN, accept as givens in life - such as, you know...tradeoffs? Consequences from choices made? I didn't ask about the whys and wherefores of "successful people" - I asked why Women have such a difficult time understanding the concepts of tradeoffs, Opportunity Costs, and so forth. Men seem to understand all these things very well - to the point that a cottage industry hasn't grown up around them in this regard. Not so for the ladies, a point which I hope to elaborate a bit on below.
So, let's try this again, shall we?
Why can't Women simply do the same? Why all the need for books, blogs, articles, seminars, workshops, etc, et al?
JS: So when you purpose that black women who are educated and career successes, just give up because it ain’t gonna happen for you, buy a cat and take up gardening spinster, this is illogical to her... because it is not in the nature of a person who achieves to do so.
O: That may be, but it doesn't change the immutable truth of what I said. A simple fact of life is that there are tradeoffs, and that we all must make them sooner or later. It is a known fact that extended schooling and career building is negatively correlated to relationship building and childbearing for the Female. Anywhere in the world where this has taken place - from spots in Africa, to Iran, to Singapore, to India, marital and fertility rates drop for Women. It is the inevitable tradeoff that must occur in order for a Woman to experience said schooling and career.
So, what I am proposing here, is that these Women simply recognize that they are where they are, at least in part, due to their own freely taken decisions and choices - and that they now must contend with them. And they will.
One way, or another...
JS: It is the hard wired mentality of those who achieve to continue to pursue their goals and that drive will continue to look for new ways to be successful against the odds.
O: I am deeply sorry for saying this to you Jhane, but I gotta tell you, that is the biggest crock of BS I have ever read, online or off...and I mean it. It's so ridiculous, so outta pocket, so very much a manifestation of your rationalization hamster running amok that I don't even know how to respond.
So I won't.
JS: Black people in general and black women in specific frequently have stories of their ‘I’ll show you mentality’ and the SMP is no different for them than starting a new business or taking a challenging class.
O: If that were true said cohort of Sistas would be having a bit more success than they currently do. Hmm.
JS: If they based their lives on statistics, they would be ‘average’ and would not have even dared to dream of becoming educated and having successful careers.
O: Businesses (and most Black Women do NOT work in the private sector free market) don't operate on hopes and wishes; they operate very much on statistical models and prospectus reports. Decisions aren't made willy-nilly; they are carefully deliberated over and considered in conjunction with other colleagues, timelines are established and timely assessments are made to see whether such-and-such program is being successful or not; and if so, said program continues; and if not, it comes to a merciful end.
Most Black Women don't work in fields where the hard and fast rules of data apply; nor are they conversant with the simple principles of Econ 101. No wonder then why they continue to be behind the Eightball of Love...
JS: Her point is that giving up isn’t an option even in the face of failure... I think this is something that can only be understood by those who have been successful at achieving their goals.
O: *Yawn*. There are tradeoffs in life, period, end of story. These ladies have made decisions that have played a strong role in where they are right now. Now they must reap the consequences of those decisions...both the good and the not-so-good...
JS: It is the reason why they go to college and graduate when most don’t, why they start business even when most fail, or why they take corporate jobs when there is still a glass ceiling... that is just who they have become through hard work... authentically.
O: Oh yeah, these gals are regular
James Merediths...NOT. Please tell me that you don't need me to remind you that Black Women have benefitted tremendously from the Women's and Civil Rights movements, all the way from grade school, to the workplace? None of these ladies aren't exactly having to walk miles to school on dirt roads barefoot, or reading by candlelight, now; in so many ways, they've had a fairly easy road paved for them - and don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with any of that. I'm jus' sayin'-let's try to keep things in perspective here.
JS: And this is not an entitlement mentality...
O: YES, it is. It's just that, because of Evolution, when a Woman makes such a demand, it isn't seen as such. But it is, and I gave a clear and present (actually, two) example of it in action, by simply reversing the gender roles of the parties involved. Let's try that again, shall we?
"But should this really be a problem though? I mean, there is a limited number of Dimes at any given time, too - but Banks didn't see fit to write a lengthy annotated tome about the woes of Brothas being upset about there not being enough Dimes to go around. Again, since the good prof wants to suggest using an economic lens through which to see all this, there will always be a "shortage" of highly valuable goods and services - simple Suppy & Demand at work here, folks. Yet Brothas (as do all Men) seem to get on with the business of living, knowing that the supply of Dimes is rather small (Women exceeding a pure "8" on the physical attractiveness scale, physical beauty being a key consideration in terms of sexual attraction for Men) and the demand high; they either have the means to win the Dimes of the world, or calibrate themselves accordingly and either settle for the sub-8 ladies in the round, or they sit it out altogether without much ado or fanfare. Why can't Women simply do the same? Why all the need for books, blogs, articles, seminars, workshops, etc, et al?"
Your response, Jhane?
JS: Black women were told, not by society or feminist, but the black community and black men that if they followed the check list of achievements that they would be ideal mates.
O: Bull. Black Women, particularly of the cohort we're talking about,
swallowed the Feminist Meme hook, line and sinker. C'mon Jhane, you ought to know better than that one, since we "met" on a blog whose first book had as its title
"Your Degrees Won't Keep You Warm At Night". Brothas don't rate a Woman's diplomas and job titles anywhere near as highly as Sistas themselves do - and there should be nothing in the least wrong with that. Sistas have every reason in the world to be proud of their accomplishments. They just don't translate very well onto the modern day African Savannah that is the SMP - indeed, much of that jazz is actually
MALADAPTIVE to the SMP. True.
JS: When I was in college in the 90’s it was not at all uncommon for black men to say that the only way they would let a woman stay home and fulfill a traditional role was if she could perform alchemy.
O: Calling Dragnet...
JS: And so all that sistas went after was a direct result of what they were told was required in order to obtain marriage from black men... many times regardless of his educational background.
O: So you know what non-college educated Brothas were/are saying too, Jhane? Is that it?
JS: Banks, as you pointed out is specifically addressing a small targeted percentage of black women, those who are ‘good’ on paper but haven’t found the success they seek in obtaining marriage.
O: He's targetting them for a very good reason -
MONEY. They're the ones who are most likely to buy his books and attend his speaking engagements. In a very real sense,
he's taking advantage of these ladies' misery, which is another reason why I came, and will continue to come, at him in the way that I did. He adds nothing substantial or novel to the "debate"; all he's doing is lining his pockets. Phooey on that...
JS: They are fit, childless mostly, educated, well traveled, attractive, and have careers not jobs. People look at them as ideal material as wives and mothers, when these discussions are had we aren't talking about 'average' women we are talking about the best of the best.
O: "The best of the best" is something that Men can and will determine; you ladies really should get out of the business of trying to tell Men who is the "best of the best". By their own admitted experiences, clearly they are NOT "the best", because if they were, they'd be snapped up in holy matrimony.
They aren't - and all indications suggest they won't be anytime soon...
JS: They haven’t followed the white feminist model, they are more Claire Huxtible and Michele Obama than Gloria Steinem or Hillary Clinton.
O: A distinction with hardly a difference, unless you want to make some racial hay outta it.
JS: They are confused because they grew up in a generation where they were told frequently by black men, that this is the type of woman that they wanted for a wife and to be the mothers of their children. A woman of quality, as defined by black men.
O: No, they are confused because,
as Steve Harvey points out so very well here, Women have a very bad tendency to trade
BAD INFORMATION between themselves - information that comes from OTHER WOMEN, NOT MEN. Hence the reason for his book, because he saw a need to tell Women what Men actually do think about these issues. And, despite my areas of contention with him, I have to say, when it comes to telling it like it is as to how Men think in a psychosexual sense,
that he's largely accurate.
JS: And lets be real about hypergammy in the black community... for a sista especially one in the 30’s and above marrying up is having a man who went to school, graduated, got and keeps a job.
O: If that is indeed true, there's little wonder why so many Sistas are drying up on the vine; I
quote:
"Black women began to outpace black men in degree production more than a half century ago, starting in the 1960s. However, degree production has not brought about parity in the personal income of black women and black men. Nationwide, although more than 800,000 more black women than black men have at least a bachelor's degree, almost 200,000 more black men than black women earn more than $75,000 per year. In America,725,922 black men earn more than $75,000 compared to 528,204 black women; 100,000 more black men earn more than $100,000 than black women; and black men are twice as likely to earn more than a quarter million dollars. Therefore, if we define success in terms of education, there will never be enough black men for black women, but if we define success in terms of income, there is still some hope for black love."
Looks like what Harvey said had a ring of truth to it, doesn't it?
JS: Our Mr. Big isn’t model after Donald Trump, even the fantasy of that fades for most educated black women in their early 20’s.
O: The same can be said for White Women. *shrugs*
JS: Oh and the only “educated professional” black women I know that have even ever dated thugs and rappers are the around the way girls that went to community college and got jobs as office managers, LPN’s in nursing homes, or as Parking Enforcement Revenue Agents... and you and I both know that is not who we are talking about.
O: Yes...we're talking about the Sistas I personally know here in Philly and in NYC and in B'more and surrounding 'burbs, who came from good homes, went to excellent schools, and just had to have that "Thuggin' Love". I've seen it far too many times to even begin to count, including yet another instance just the other day, where a young lady who graduated with a degree in Journalism from a top uni is going through it with her just-got-home boyfriend. Yeah, tell me all about it, Jhane...
JS: Banks and others are simply pointing out what is obvious, that if you are an educated woman and want a mate that is compatible for marriage then you need to look at men who are equally yolked and interested in marriage and the same lifestyle, and the reality is that your odds for success will improve if you expand your pool beyond race.
O: Ah. The "equally yoked"
bullshit argument again, I see.
Please read the study I just linked to above, Jhane - not only is it very possible for Sistas to find love in the hood, so to speak, but it doesn't require one to expound upon the deeper meanings of the Iliad or be able to decipher Latin to do so. Sistas in this mindset are suffering from what I call
"Ms. Ann Syndrome" - and they would do well to wise up and wake up,
especially given the times we're living in - you feel me?
JS: Something that educated black women have not traditionally done out of a sense of loyalty.
O: I think "loyalty" plays a role, but something else plays a bigger one - Sistas are simply more sexually attracted to Brothas than other Men, end of. Which makes sense when you sitdown to think about it.
JS: The key thing to note with this group of women, is for the majority that fall in this specific demographic, that dating non-black men is an option that they have previously chosen not to exercise.
O: That's not what the data says. Even VSB (Champ, actually) acknowledges this FACT. Only one under the spell of her Rationalization Hamster would attempt to suggest otherwise.
JS: Shenika and ReRe don’t have cross cultural appeal, because they have cultivated an appearance and lifestyle that ONLY appeals to black men. The black women Banks is addressing don’t have to jump that hurdle and have been approached by non-black men, but have chosen not to pursue even the possibility.
O: False. In fact, I would wager a princely sum if I were a betting Man, that said Sistas would do better with the White boys than the ladies Banks is hawking his wares to.
Fun question: ask me why I would say that?
JS: Banks is merely pointing out that they should be dating within their peer group which would include more eligible non-black men.
O: If the White guys in said peer group are with it, more power to em. The data - and again, even Banks admits this - doesn't support your contention.
Isn't it illogical to draw a conclusion that doesn't follow the evidence presented? Something like that...
JS: I haven’t seen a study on it but anecdotally I can tell you that when the sistas Banks is targeting leave the hood and or predominately black neighborhoods, the black church and date across racial lines most I know are married or in LTR in short order... meaning less than two years.
O: Yes, I would like to see some studies...but for now, I'll take your word for it. Partly because I've seen it firsthand, and you know something?
Those Sistas invariably "settle" when they get with White guys. They are nowhere near the Apex Alpha types they talk a mean game (pardon the pun) about in
"BWE" circles; they are often quite Herbish Beta types, and more often than not,
not even monied. I happen to know a recently married couple like this - the Sista in question is "White" by acculturation etc, and married a starving musician type. He moved in with her in her apartment after they tied the knot, and he teaches a few classes at a local community college a few nights a week.
Per the study I linked to above, she would have made out much better financially by getting with a Brotha, but hey, it is what it is - and that isn't the first time I've seen something like that.
Life's strange...
JS: This is not going to be advice that will serve all or even most black women, but for those who are educated, living outside of the hood, attractive, with careers who want to get married and have children in their 30’s, it is a valid, under exercised option that needs to be at least considered.
O: Like I said, I would love to see that study that reports the results of such an "option" come the year 2020...
JS: I think the success of those I know personally is in part due to the fact that these black women are snapping up the non black betas that the non black women have cast aside, because there is an inherit understanding of what it is like to be considered undesirable.
But that is just an observation
O: Nope - you've hit on a very important point that I just noted above, and which Dragnet has spoken to in the other thread - Sistas who won't tolerate thus-and-so from a Brotha, but will bend over backwards when it comes to Mr. Charlie. Funny that.
JS: I also think that Banks does not address black men because black men aren’t interested in changing their behavior or figuring out why they think and do the things they do, so there is no audience for that discussion. Because the collective sees no benefit in doing so. So why should he address them, when there is no problem as black men see it.
O: No, Banks didn't address Black Men because THERE'S NO MONEY IN IT.
Capice?
There are all manner of studies into all kinds of things and people, Black Men should be no different...ahhh, but they are different. It's called Male Disposability, Jhane. Try it with your friends!
It’s like college... the administration will drop a class if it doesn’t have sufficient enrollment, even if they class may be beneficial in theory, there is no point if no one is going to take the class.
JS: Lastly...
Malia did address what you wrote, just from a forward thinking view and a different perspective, by making a couple of different conclusions based on what you wrote.
O: It was most definitely from a "different perspective" alright - but she didn't actually address anything I said, in addition to tossing a number of red herrings onto the table of discussion. I don't mind, I'm easy - but at least speak to the issues as they are presented first? I mean, whatever happened to etitiqutte and all...?
JS: First, if black women do decide to marry at younger ages there isn’t an available pool of black men to marry.
O: For the umpteenth time - bunk.
JS: Susan herself has said that if a woman is educated her mate should be as well.
O: And my response to you is the same to her inane (sorry Ms. Walsh, but it is what it is) comment,
because we have clear data that supports that it is indeed possible for couples to get and stay together where one of them isn't a Ph.D. Again, Ms. Ann Syndrome, anyone?
JS: The truth is that marrying a man who is less educated and lower on the employment food chain does not make for good long term mate potential. Nor are their values usually equally matched enough for co-parenting
"Black women began to outpace black men in degree production more than a half century ago, starting in the 1960s. However, degree production has not brought about parity in the personal income of black women and black men. Nationwide, although more than 800,000 more black women than black men have at least a bachelor's degree, almost 200,000 more black men than black women earn more than $75,000 per year. In America,725,922 black men earn more than $75,000 compared to 528,204 black women; 100,000 more black men earn more than $100,000 than black women; and black men are twice as likely to earn more than a quarter million dollars. Therefore, if we define success in terms of education, there will never be enough black men for black women, but if we define success in terms of income, there is still some hope for black love."
You were saying Jhane?
JS: If these pairings were successful more women would chose them as options, especially the select group we are addressing. The reality is that in the black community there isn’t a plethora of educated betas who would even be adequate providers as in other non black communities
O: Wrong,
as even the this study indicates. There are plenty of Black Betas, the reality is that the select group of Sistas we're discussing simply ain't attracted to them -
which is perfectly OK by me. Unlike some in the Manosphere, I don't have an axe to grind with Hypergamy - to do so would be as silly as the Feminists who want to upbraid Men for liking young supple Female flesh. In fact, I encourage those Sistas
NOT to settle for the Brotha Betas - they are in truth doing them a favor by refusing to do so,
especially in an age where it is all too easy for such a Sista to make a wreck of a Man's life.
JS: Mark Zuckerberg is not a beta to an educated black woman... a beta from the black community would be considered a male not suitable for mating and marriage in most if not all non black communities.
O: OK. *shrugs*
JS: And trust a reasonably attractive educated black woman in her 30's and 40's can easily have her pick of science, technology, engineering and math guys... I live in a midwest tech corridor so I know.
O: Alright then - so why doesn't she? Why doesn't the online dating site data reflect this? Or is this some insider baseball state secret? Please explain?
JS: Educated black women have a long proven track record of their willingness to invest in a mans potential... so to invest in a beta non black STEM is very appealing to her especially as her marriage pool shrinks even further.
O: Data supporting this, please?
JS: Also choosing not to educate herself is an even more detrimental decision for black women, because it does not improve her odds of marriage or finding a mate who will help her parent any children they should have, and it exponentially increases her odds of living in declining levels of poverty, which creates even fewer chances of her finding a mate and decreases the opportunities for providing for her children.
O: I never said anything about Women choosing not to educate themselves, if anything I laud and applaud it.
JS: Unlike other communities we do not have men who are interested or qualified to step into the white collar service or corporate jobs should we step aside... we typically do not compete head to head with black men for education and employment resources. We just don't.
O: OK - so the only meaningful way to make a good living is to be found in the White Collar service/corporate sector? The vasty majority of Black Women don't work in these areas either - does that mean that they are failures and bad options for marriage, Jhane? Please explain?
JS: The reality is that many in the black community have not embraced 21st century realities of commerce, and what skills have value and those that are antiquated and have diminishing value, i.e. manual labor.
O: Please do keep that in mind the next time your toilet is broken and you need someone to make the doo-doo go away...
JS: The Judd Apatow slacker as modeled is trying to find his way and get rich quick so he can at least afford his pot habit... the black male equivalent is the rare Dave Chappel exception or ends up in jail on a RICO charge... because the justice system, even for white collar crime is stacked against brothas.
O: OK I guess...*I'm still trying to figure out what the criminal justice system has to do with what I actually wrote*
JS: There is also the reality that non black male slacker will still out earn a black male slacker... and he will have greater opportunities for redemption through later life education and job opportunities... apples and hand grenades.
O: This is true all up and down the socioeconomic ladder. In fact a dirty little secret that no one wants to admit, because it would royally skewer far too many sacred cows,
is that for Black Men, getting formal educations is an iffy proposition, from a purely financial standpoint (there may be other bennies to attending uni, I will grant that). Studies have shown that
Brothas having degrees still make less than their White counterparts, and yes, that's after you control for school attended, majors taken, grades achieved, time on the job, etc et al.
Simply put, Black Men make less for the same job done as White Men. Having degrees doesn't matter much in this regard. The only thing that can be definitely said is that a degreed Brotha may -
MAY - make more money than a Brotha who doesn't have a degree. Beyond that, it is literally a crapshoot -
one where Brothas roll Snake Eyes all too often.
JS: So even though we are canaries in the coal mine, we are much further down the shaft. And to ignore this is problematic.
O: I don't disagree with you there...
JS: The truth of the matter, as you state in your post, is that black women have been left to fend for themselves and the percentage that have been the most successful at doing so, have lowered their probability to have companionship or the opportunity to procreate.
O: I'm sorry, could you please refresh my memory as to the statement I supposedly made? Direct quote(s), please?
JS: I think Malia’s point is that the group of women that Banks is targeting will go into survival of the fittest mode Braveheart style. With the odds against them and their backs to the wall.
O: LOL. Uh, I think you mean these Women - and, correct me if I'm wrong, but...didn't
William Wallace lose like a dozen pounds for "going to the wall" against the Brits? Not sure if the cohort Banks is selling books to is quite that "brave".
JS: And while it is true some won’t make it and will die off... but there will be those that do, because we are a resilient lot. And we hopefully will teach our sons and daughters different.
O: The data as we have it says otherwise. The Sista Spinster cohort is growing, not shrinking. Both Banks AND Robinson - as in WaPo/MSNBC pundit
Eugene Robinson - points this out.
JS: But to discourage the attempt, simply because the odds of success are low, is not in the best interest of anyone... least of all black women.
O: It's not about what's in the best interests of anyone. These Black Women have made choices and decisions that were in their best interests already - they just came at a price.
I am saying they need to make peace with that price.
JS: What other choice do you have... when giving up is not, and never has been an option for you ~JS
O: How about being a Grown-Up?
Now adjourn your asses...
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