"And the Obsidian wants to paint it all black...as he is justified."
Well, it seems that our good friend, the half-Jewish fledgling HBD blogger Unamused, has declared yet another debate "closed". Seems his heart just wasn't in it.
Last week he posted up a longwinded and meandering "Ode to Whiteness" in which he urges his fellow White Americans not to feel so guilty about merely being, you know, White. The following was a series of questions I posed to him in response which sparked a "debate" of sorts, which you can see here. Following my initial Seven Questions, I will post our final exchange on the matter in its entirety, you know, because here at the O-Files we don't have a Politburo that we have to run everything through before anything hits the light of day. (You can see our other exchanges here and here). I'll aslo post up U's cowardly "parting shot" remarks, as well as a few of the commenters' remarks since he "closed the debate" between us. I will then leave it for both our respective readers to come to their own conclusions. By all means, and this is an open invitation to the 3 commenters over at U's blog, feel free to register your thoughts and opinions here! We promise not to censor you.
(Note: Have you noticed a decided tendency on the part of HBD bloggers to censor or otherwise moderate their message boards? Half Sigma, Steve Sailer, OneSTDV and now Unamused, are just a few of the characters who do this - all the while bemoaning the fact that they aren't allowed to speak their peace in the light of day. Talk about the height of rank hypocrisy - whew...)
The first commenter is very interesting; sounds like the typical White Nationalist. You have quite a bit of explaining to do there.
At any rate, interesting post. I might write up something a bit more lengthy on it over at my blog if the spirit moves me. But in the meantime, I'd just like to ask a few questions:
1. You say above in your post that White Pride isn't "allowed" if you will. Exactly who is preventing you or anyone else from celebrating "White Pride"? Are there any laws or ordinances making it illegal to do so? Is there any specific clause in your employment contract that prohibits you from wearing a t-shirt that says, "Kiss Me-I'm Irish!" on it? Are there barriers to your entry into a Knights of Columbus building? Please explain to me how you or any other White person, is actually prevented from celebrating your Whiteness?
2. Exactly who are the African Americans who are seriously lobbying Congress for Reparations? Who are the African Americans who have organized groups for the express purpose of terrorizing Whites - with state sanction and support? And of the Blacks who have committed crimes against Whites, have they been apprehended and punished, or not? Is there any way for us to ascertain this? You say that "some Black people are still blaming all their problems on slavery" and by extension, White people. Alright then - exactly who are they? Why haven't you highlighted actual names and organizations of Black people who make these claims, like you've highlighted numerous other points in your post?
3. You say that Whites are more responsible than Blacks, by point to the out of wedlock birthrate. Fair enough, you would be correct on that score But what you leave out is the fact that, circa 1965, the Black OOW birthrate was around 25% - today's White OOW has exceeded that. This is documented, by the way. Moreover, according to the blogger Susan Walsh of Hooking Up Smart, the incidence of Herpes and genital warts has skyrocketed on America's college campuses - which are still, circa 2011, overwhelmingly White. I think it may be fair to say that while Whites may be more responsible than Blacks on this score, they certainly aren't as responsible as they used to be. To what do you attribute this backsliding of personal responsibility, Unamused?
4. You make the case that Black kids are statistically more violent than White kids; yet just about every school shooting massacre that has taken place over the last two decades, have had White Males behind the trigger - with the notable exception of Sueng Hui Cho, a South Korean. Columbine of course, instantly and easily comes to mind. Indeed, one is hardpressed to come up with a Black equivalent. Why do you think this is, Unamused? Is the lack of White Pride on the part of the shooters in all these incidents, at fault - and if so, how can you prove this?
5. Who are the Whites who supposedly feel guilty about Slavery, Unamused? You make the claim that they exist, but you have yet to offer actual names to match the (White) faces. Can you do so, or is this just your own personal assertion? Moreover, concerning Slavery, isn't Brazil irrelevant since they're a seperate country, and was governed by a differing set of Whites than the USA? Also, isn't it true that just because someone else is committing a crime, doesn't make it alright for you to commit the same crime? In other words, if Blacks (name the King) were indeed selling and enslaving Blacks in Africa, that doesn't absolve White slave masters from going to Africa to purchase slaves. Purchasing stolen goods is a crime, is it not, Unamused?
6. You say that White people are artistic. They certainly are. However, all of America's great musical forms, have either been created by and are still performed by, African Americans, or at the very least got their start with Blacks. Can you name any other musical artform that was born in the USA that did NOT have anything whatsoever to do with Blacks, and that was started and maintained to this day, by Whites?
7. Above, you quote extensively the Paleoconservative Pat Buchanan, who makes the case that Black Americans are ungrateful. In what way do you think it would be appropriate for Black Americans to show gratitude? How would that happen? What would it look like? And what documented evidence can you give that this isn't the case among a majority of African Americans? Moreover, why shoul African Americans be "grateful" to White Americans, given the fact that Blacks have fought in every war this country has ever had, and have had to fight much harder for their civil and political rights than any White immigrant to this country had to do?
There's more I could ask, but I'll just hold here. I notice that you have just under 1500 hits so far. Here's hoping you can make it to 2000 by the 22nd!
Here's Unamused's final response to me (which are in bold, for emphasis):
"Seven Questions For Unamused, Part Three
Replies, as always, below:
[deleted: insults, offensive, straw man arguments, basic logic errors . . . in short, another endless rant]
[Obsidian, I've understood for over a week now why everyone thinks you're a troll. I was hoping you would improve, and actually argue your position coherently. But you haven't, you don't, and now I realize you can't. Therefore I am closing this debate, and any further comments from you will have to be of a markedly improved quality. I refuse to let you ugly up my blog with your unique combination of fallacies, insults, ignorance, and cheap rhetorical tricks, all backed up by no evidence whatsoever.
If your objective is to show the world that black people are just as intelligent as white people, you should probably rethink your strategy.]"
And here's the uncensored and uncut third and final exchange on "White Pride" and my Seven Questions based on it:
"Seven Questions For Unamused, Part Three
12:01 PM 2/13/2011 Sun
Replies, as always, below:
[You still don't understand my comments policy? Maybe you should re-read it.]
O: I did; I maintain what I said, Mr. Kruschev, LOL
O: Well, you know what they say – it takes one to know one…
[Doesn't really work here, that comeback.]
O: Yes, it does.
[Blah blah blah guilt by association.]
O: Yes. In the real world, that's how things work. You Aspergy types have a hard time getting that. Like I said, you suck when it comes to politics...
O: And since you don’t think Black folk are inferior, let me ask you; what do you see for them insofar as their place in American society is concerned, given their limited average ability? If that doesn’t mark them as inferior, as less than, then what? Please explain?
[Why would I consider the "place" of millions of people collectively? Everyone in his own place, according to his ability.]
O: Why wouldn't you? Given your position on things such as Affirmative Action and the like, one could surely conclude that you're perfectly OK with the bulk and mass of African Americans being a de facto and permanent lower caste of society. You may not say as much, may not even intend it; but what you're advocating for does lead one to such a conclusion. Which explains why you'll get absolutely nowhere...
["Irish" does not equal "white." Hahahahaha Channukah is white pride now? I laughed (at you) because KoC is, well, a Catholic group. They're also not equal to "white." If the quality of your arguments (and I use the term loosely) does not improve, I'll close this debate too.]
O: Sure you will, because you don't like getting continally punked on your own blog, LOL. Alright then, Unamused - exactly, constitutes White? Please explain? Oh, wait...
O: Every year here in Philly there is what is known as the Mummer’s Parade – a “White Pride” display if there ever was one. It goes on year in and year out, no one’s stopped them to date.
O: False - remember, I'm a lifelong Philly resident and native. I know of which I speak. My lady happens to be from Chitown, too, and she can tell you all about the big Irish parades for St. Patty's Day. Not a Black face in sight...
O: Get back to me when you can actually provide real, Jim Crow against Whites, LOL…
[Straw man. Not the first, of course. Not even the twenty-first . . .]
O: Nope. YOU have been banging the drum for all the ways in Whites have been "discriminated" against on your blog. YOU have to actually make the case that this is indeed true. Thus far, you have not.
O: Uh, yea…if one is going to make such an argument, it then follows that they should be able to point out clear and present examples of them being prevented to do so. You have yet to provide any such examples. Even the guy above could print up a shirt that said “White Pride” and wore it and no one could stop him. And I should have a handle on the way White folks are treated? Really? Please explain? And, when have I “griped and moaned” about “how badly blacks are treated in America”? Please point out the specific quotes?
[Please form a coherent counterargument. To anything.]
O: Ladies first...
O: Nope; I never said you did. Why so defensive, Unamused? You’re more sensitive that my kid sister. OK, so we have ONE US Congressman who, what, some TWO DECADES AGO tried to make a fuss over Reparations. One. Anyone else in the halls of Congress banging the drum for such a thing, U?
[Hey, maybe you should form a counterargument, so I don't need to decipher which of your questions are rhetorical and intended to score points with your readers, and which are actually asking for information?]
Sure - as soon as you stop whining about why White guys like you keep losing.
[There are no white terrorist mobs with state sanction and support in the United States. There are plenty of black terrorist mobs, and some, like the Jena 6, have the support of the black community. Again: don't ask questions you think you already know the answers to, just make a case. Any case.]
O: False. The Ku Klux Klan was an organized terrorist group who had state sanction and support, from the White House all the way down to the local levels of government, such as law enforcement and the judiciary. The Jena Six incident hardly spoke to the aspirations of the entire Black community. I can show you large swaths of it who didn't even know what was going on at the time. Moreover, correct me if I'm wrong, but certain actors in that drama were apprehended, were they not? We know, for a fact, that members of the KKK who committed vicious crimes of violence and terrorism against Blacks have yet to be apprehended. You were saying?
O: So how is it that I, as a lifelong African American, have yet to hear ANY fellow Blacks rail on and on about AA either way, voices his or her hatred of Whites, or argues daily about how slavery and the like is the cause as to why Black folks have problems in this society? Oh wait, my experiences don’t count. Gotcha.
[Your black experience does not disprove my claim that SOME BLACK PEOPLE DO THIS. We're talking basic logic now.]
O: Right - so, your purely anecdotal citation of what SOME Black people say or do (quantify "some", please?), logically trumps my own experience, and the experiences of untold millions of other African Americans? Really?
O: Yes, but the point YOU made is that White people are responsible, and you noted as point of comparison Black people and family formation. I then proved that White people’s OOW birthrate in the early 21st century has exceeded what the Black rate was less than a half a century earlier. So the question becomes, if indeed White people in America are so much smarter AND morally superior to Blacks, how then are we to explain this glaring fact? You don’t, other than offering a weaksauce “everyon’s families are getting worse”. Clearly, White people aren’t as responsible as they used to be, now are they, Unamused?
[Weak though the sauce may appear, white people are still much more responsible than blacks, which was the claim. I never said they were more responsible now than at any other point in human history, or whatever absurd straw man you're arguing against now.]
O: For one thing, for you to crow about Whites being more responsible sexually than Blacks is a low bar, given that we both agree that the latter's situation is abyssmal. I mean really, what victory is there to be had in saying such a thing?
Secondly, from Susan Walsh's blog, Hooking Up Smart:
There are a million new cases of herpes each year, 2/3 of which occur in people younger than 25. Researchers estimate that 1/3 of college students will contract genital herpes by the time they graduate."
Ms. Walsh is also quite candid in disclosing the stats as they pertain to African Americans, and they are indeed higher - but the point of her post is that such STD increases are documented as being higher in more recent years among college aged Whites. Fact, Unamused. Please feel free to hit Ms. Walsh up, she doesn't have a dog in this fight and she is Whiter than White with an overwhelmingly White audience.
[I just read the CDC and NIH stats. They support my claims. Non-Asian minorities are getting way more STDs than whites. So I guess I don't need to explain anything.]
O: Again, please see above; if your claim to fame is that you're better than a retard and you're not retarded, that's not really saying as much (see Sailer's parting shot in his White Pride is Uncool article).
U: How very silly. School mass-murderers tend to be white.
O: Thank you. The End. Next question?
[Interesting that you felt the need to chop out the rest of the quote:
O: I did because we both agreed on the basic facts of the matter. Nothing more needs to be said or added.
U: There are even lots of black serial killers. Who knew.
O: Non-sequitur. Who knew?
[Again, that comeback doesn't really work that way.]
O: Yes, it does. You don't get to redefine things here. You were discussing school violence. I pointed out that the worst incidences of same were committed by Whites, and you readily agreed. We weren't discussing violence in general, or serial killers. Non-sequitur.
O: Perhaps not, but then I am not concerned about the “guilt” Whites do or don’t share; I am interested in facts. And the fact is, that what another soveriegn country does has nothing to do with what obtains here in the United States. *shrugs* Brazil is none of my concern, nor does this country operate on the basis of what Brazil does of doesn’t do insofar as slavery is concernend or anything else. Not doing such a bad job with those strawmen arguments yourself…
[I'm not concerned with whatever you're ranting about, since this is the comments section of a post which does concern itself with white guilt.]
O: You were the one who brought up Brazil and I was only speaking to the absurdity of such a claim. You then say that this post concerns itself with "White guilt" even though you have yet to specify which Whites do indeed feel "guilty". You have simply made the claim ipso facto. I need to see evidence. In the meantime, if indeed there are any such animals out there as "guilty" White folks, I would recommend they get therapy for that.
O: Again – name the King. In ancient times in many African societies, said societies were ruled by tribal chieftan-kings. Please name the Kings who did all this enslaving of Whites?
[What is this, Trivial Pursuit?]
O: Not at all; only a request for you to actually back up your boilerplate claims with names, dates and places. You know, facts? LOL
[Again: OOOOOOH white people were guilty of purchasing stolen goods! Still has nothing to do with what I said.]
O: Yes it does. Saying that "everybody had slaves" doesn't make it right for YOU to have one. Basic logic, anyone?
[Sadly, I'm starting to think you can't. (See, that's how a comeback works.)]
O: No, that's how a whacked attempt at a comeback works (yours above).
[You can have your banjo. I'll take Led Zeppelin.]
O: Funny you would say that: http://theurbandaily.com/black-music-month/samples-of-history/billjohnson/led-zeppelin-vs-the-blues/
I love Led Zep, but have always been partial to The Doors. Oh, and Jimi Hendrix, considered by many to be among if not thee greatest guitarist of all time? He's a Brotha too, and got his start with the Isley Brothers, who themselves were a huge hit in the UK at the same time Led Zep was doing their thing.
Repeat after me, U - there IS no American music, or for that matter even British music, without Black folks. There really, really, isn't.
O: Of course, you realize that the vast majority of African Americans don’t commit crime, yes? So, let’s try this again: what would “gratitude” look like, and let’s focus like a laser beam here, we’re talking about the majority of law abiding Blacks? Your response? Think real hard now…
[Not bitching and moaning about the white man keeping him down.]
O: LOL, is that the best you can come up with, U? GIMME NAMES. Come on.
O: Isn’t that a strawman? I didn’t ask about any such thing, nor are we discussing the performance of Black soldiers on the battlefiend. Irrelevant. Focus, son. Focus.
[Did you get lost in your own straw man argument? This is you: ". . . Blacks have fought in every war this country has ever had . . ."]
O: Did you? I only mentioned a historical fact, easily proofed by the most casual of Google searches. You on the other hand made a completely off color remark about something I said nothing about. I never said anything about Black soldier performance, I was talking about the fact that every major military conflict this country's had as had the involvement of Black soldiers in it. Fact. Your statement? Strawman.
O: Please point out to me specifically in the piece where he is indeed so very sympathetic?
[Unbelievable. You really think Sailer needs to say "I am sympathetic to white pride" in order for the piece to convey that message.]
O: It would help, given that from reading the article alone, one cannot infer what he feels about Whites in a position to advocate for "White Pride" - indeed, if anything, one can infer that he doesn't think all that highly of them himself...
[Again: please read the article you linked.]
O: I have; please answer the question?
O: Sailer’s article had nothing to do with “black criminality” – strawman – and in any event its biggest victims hands down are other Black people. Look up the DOJ and FBI stats.
[I'm able to think for myself, beyond what Mr. Sailer has written. Also, that's not a straw man, because . . . actually, just look up the definition yourself.]
O: Believe me, I did, unlike you...and yes, your "creative thinking" leaves a heck of a lot to be desired. How about you actually dealing with what Sailer has said, hmm?
[By "losers" you mean the poor.]
O: No, I mean the MARGINAL. Big difference. And the truth is, being a marginal White guy is certain death in the world in which we live. Half Sigma would be an excellent example of what I mean, despite his being, perhaps especially because of his being, a New York Jew. He's not poor by any means, and by all accounts, had a middle class upbringing. But he IS marginal. Hence his consternation at those who were born with either more talent or more social cred, or both.
O: Actually, African Americans have a very high rate of fostering informally; higher than Whites, in fact. Sailer among others has written about this, if you’re of a mind to check it out. My own personal experience and observation attests to this.
[Fostering is not illegitimacy. Fostering is not single-motherhood. In fact, fostering is only necessitated by those.
O: Quoting from the conversation above:
Anony: "MOST people around the world are more family oriented than the average white."
Unamused: "Seems likely. Unfortunately, the same is not true of non-Asian minorities living in America, judging by illegitimacy and single-motherhood rates."
This is what I was responding to, the claim made by "Anony" above, and your response to it. Black Americans have been documented to show that they are indeed more "family oriented" than their White counterparts, and part of the evidence of this is their informal fostering tendencies. Single motherhood rates and illegitimacy are irrelevant.
U: You need to drastically improve your argumentation, or I will close down this nonsense as well. This is a place for constructive debate, not a place for you to rant.
O: Projection - you are the one ranting on and on about "White guilt" and how things like Affirmative Action has been an "unmitigated racial diaster" and so forth. You have yet to offer any actual proof that backs up your claims, and then have the nerve to get pissy when I show you up (*cough John McWhorter, cough*). You know that I have a blog of my own, so go right on ahead banging your shoe on the table, LOL.
You make me laugh.
Again, I leave it to our respective readerships and commentariat, to decide for themselves who is on top of things here, and who's all wet.
And now, I respond to his (two) commenters on the matter:
Dana, of Minarchy fame, says the following:
"dude you will have a stroke trying to argue with Obsidian"
O: Well, you know - I try. Way to go with your blog! I mean, so much activity and commenters...
*quoting me* "Can you name any other musical artform that was born in the USA that did NOT have anything whatsoever to do with Blacks, and that was started and maintained to this day, by Whites?"
*his response* "Country music."
Uh, false: "Immigrants to the Maritime Provinces and Southern Appalachian Mountains of North America brought the music and instruments of the Old World along with them for nearly 300 years. They brought some of their most important valuables with them, and to most of them this was an instrument: “Early Scottish settlers enjoyed the fiddle because it could be played to sound sad and mournful or bright and bouncy” The Irish fiddle, the German derived dulcimer, the Italian mandolin, the Spanish guitar, and the West African banjo were the most common musical instruments. The interactions among musicians from different ethnic groups produced music unique to this region of North America. Appalachian string bands of the early 20th century primarily consisted of the fiddle, guitar, and banjo. This early country music along with early recorded country music is often referred to as old-time music...Often, when many people think or hear country music, they think of it as a creation of European-Americans. However, a great deal of style—and of course, the banjo, a major instrument in most early American folk songs—came from African Americans. One of the reasons country music was created by African-Americans, as well as European-Americans, is because blacks and whites in rural communities in the south often worked and played together, just as recollected by DeFord Bailey in the PBS documentary, DeFord Bailey: A Legend Lost."
What is up with these FOB types who want to lecture to some of the oldest American groups what this country is all about? Sheesh...
Anyway, again, I leave it to the readers to take from here. Take this as my serving notice on you, Unamused - not only do your blatherings amuse me, but I will take special time out of my schedule to correct your glaring holes in logic.
Man-Up - And see ya at the top!
Now adjourn your pitiful "White Pride" asses...