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Monday, August 26th 2013

10:01 AM

Obsidian Helps A Sista Out

"The game done changed."

"The game is the same; it just got more fierce."

***Hi Obsidian,

I had quick question for you.  Lately I have been having a problem with the guys I'm dating.  One guy I really REALLY liked suddenly stopped calling.  I don't have a problem initially attracting these guys but after 3 or so dates many just fade out.  I always put my best foot forward looks-wise, especially on dates.  Dresses, makeup, heels/feminine shoes, ect.

This particular guy had everything I wanted (on paper) in a man.   On dates he would always pay, he would call me(I never had to call/wonder about him), and set up for next time.  On our last outing he took me to the aquarium and then we had a fancy 3-course steak dinner at an upscale restaurant.  That was 2 weeks ago and i have heard from him since.  I'm not going to blow up his phone, because if he wants to see me he knows how/where to find me.

Its just weird because we always had good conversation, we had a lot in common, and laughed/joked a lot.

My question to you is this: in your experience, what causes a man to do a 180 on a woman?  Why invest time and money into a woman and then just disappear?

PS this might be important but the most we did was hug and kiss, no fondling and definitely no sex.

Thank You.***

I received the above email over the weekend from one of my lady readers; though the O-Files is a forum that caters to the needs and interests of (Black) Men, the fact of the matter is that I do have a sizable presence of lady readers (and occasional commenters) like the one above; one crude measure of this fact is in noting my Twitter account; at present, roughly half of my followers are female. While this might seem odd, given my own stated mission, it in fact makes perfect sense when one considers the fact that when Women want the straight dope as to how it all goes down on the mating grounds of early 21st century life, they go to Men, and rightly so, because unlike many of their girlfriends, us fellas can and often will tell the ladies what they need to hear - not what they want to hear. 

At least, that's how the O-Man does it. 

So, with all that said, we now turn to answer this lady's query - and from what I can tell, especially her parting shot, it looks like she answered her own question; simply, and admittedly crudely put, Men With Options, simply aren't gonna hang around past Date Three without any drawls coming off. 

Although much has been written about it in a very narrow and constrained context, the truth of the matter is that we all now live in a Hookup Age, where the sex comes BEFORE the relationship - and those (read: Women) of us who aren't down with that, run the serious risk of being left behind in the Game of Love in the 21st century. 

It may sound trite, but in so many ways, what the lady is suffering above, is the ongoing fallout from the "Free Love" era of the latter 60s-mid-70s; the Sexual Revolution is still very much with us, this time in the guise of "sex positive Feminism", and it HAS brought about some good bennies: Women in particular had unprecedented control over their reproductive lives, and with it, more of a say in whom they would choose and select, not just for longterm mates, but for short term ones, too. Indeed, back in the day - some 50 years ago - if a Man was a good provider and would "love the kids", he was seen as a strong prospect for a young lady, and the surrounding culture strongly encouraged her to "hop on it". 

Not so today - aside from Womens' own ambitions in the way of expanded educational and career opportunites, they also have the ability to demand more in any potential romantic suitors - things like physical appearance, social awareness/dominance, empathy/kindness/understanding, *being good in bed*, as well as the aforementioned ability to be a good provider, now are seen by many Women as "givens"; fewer Women are willing to make tradeoffs that were silently understood not even a half century ago. 

All of these developments, and many more, have been very good things, not just for Women, but for all of us - the couples that are together today, are much happier then they were in the past; but there are downsides to all of this, too. For example, there are fewer couples than there were in the past; and those couples who are together, tend to skew older than younger, with the added side effect that fewer children are born within wedlock, anyway. 

Then, there's the fact that there are many Women, like our lady above, who, while she might appreciate some of the things sex-positive Feminism and the like have made possible for her, may not like the fact that one of the downsides is having to put out much sooner than she would have liked. That is what she is facing here, and to be frank, there just aren't any easy answers to any of this. Look, for better or for worse, the dating game has changed. In fact, the dating game, such as it is, is on life support, if not DOA, and in large part due to the social/economic/political forces mentioned above. No dis to the lady above, but I gotta tell ya, it's hard for a guy to hear on the one hand about how strong and independent Women today are, and on the other how they're still so "old fashioned" - which is a nice way of saying, that they still expect the guy to do all the things his grandpop back in the day did. Of course, few ladies of today are lining up to do what their grandmas did either. 

As I've written about fairly extensively before, a lot of guys are slowly but surely wising up to the fact that doing what their dads and pop-pops did back in the day, simply doesn't work as much as it used to  - and in many cases, more than we'd like to admit, it doesn't work at all. The Guys With Options, simply put, don't have to kickout for lavish dinners and the like, at least not without the knowledge that YES, they WILL be all up in that at the end of the evening; today, the guys who go all in are the ones that, ironically enough, the ladies DON'T want like that. 

So, the guys in the latter cohort are slowly realizing that it's a Fool's Errand to keep doing such things; and they vote with their feet. Meanwhile, the guys that the ladies DO want, don't have to go all in much, if at all; again, this is what Sex-Positive Feminism, at least in part, hath wrought. 

And that's not even taking into account the Deception Factor, something else I've written about, and which explains a goodly bit of what we see today on these fronts. For every lady who's like the one above, there are at least one who can and will "have fun" on a Man's dime and lead him on into thinking that he had a chance when in reality, he never did. What do you think those guys are going to do when they find out the truth - do you honestly think that they're going to want to wine and dine our lady above? Or do you think they're likely to go another route? 

It's a heck of a situation, and again, I offer no easy answers; I cannot tell this Woman above, or any other, to do or not to do, thus and so. What I can tell her, and any other ladies reading along, is that the game done changed - and those who fail to change with it, for better or for worse, have decided to put themselves at a serious disadvantage on the mating market. Those Women who fail to put out strategically risk losing out to those Women who see the handwriting on the wall, get what they deem to be a good guy, and put it on him; meanwhile, those ladies who for whatever reason don't do this, will only increase their chances of getting older with each passing year, and with it, less bargaining power out on the open mating market; and those Men who fail to learn GAME, improve their appearance, social skills, etc., run the risk of losing out to those Men who get it, and instead joining the ranks of bachelors who lacked what Women in our time have made clear they want and in some cases, outright demand. 

As much as I may want to say to the lady above that someday your prince will come, the simple truth of the matter is that you and only you, can and should decide how all of this is going down. You have to ask if you can afford to let the guy - who by your own admission, had everything you wanted - slip through your fingers, and to be frank quite likely fall into the hands of a competitor (because, let's face it, and for Women especially, if you've got eyes on a guy, chances are very high there are other ladies who do, too). There are quite a few ladies who've answered such a question in the affirmative, and by all accounts that strategy hasn't yielded the desired results, if by that term we mean, getting them the Man they wanted, and failing that, depending on their age, etc, getting them a Man at all. 

But there are always exceptions to the rule. 

Perhaps, you will be one of them?

Now adjourn your arses...

The Obsidian
24 comment(s).

Posted by deti:

Knocked another one out of the park.

Well done, Obsidian.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 11:09 AM

Posted by Obsidian:

@Deti:
Thanks, Man! Listen, get at me in email, I've been trying to get a hold of you. Thanks again!

O.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 11:20 AM

Posted by 662:

3 course steak dinner & this nigga hasn't even smelled the chocha yet, huh?! The fuck kind of simp shyt is that?

"He has everything I want on paper": He's a beta provider that spends on me & he's at my beck and call.

Plus, I must be out of the loop -- I didn't know possibly calling someone once or twice equals "blowing up the phone." This broad wants the man to do all the heavy lifting & she's supposed to sit back with her palms out.. FUCK OUTTA HERE..
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 12:04 PM

Posted by Sistah OP:

Hello Obsidian,

First I want to thank you for taking my question and examining the wider issues. I will admit I AM somewhat old fashioned in my ways. That being said I have NO problems whatsoever playing that role in a relationship, nor have I ever used the words "strong and independent" to describe myself. So Im not someone who is trying to play both sides of the sexual liberation game.

With that being said, I think you are right. I even had a gay male friend tell me the same thing. Like I said was REALLY into the guy in question, and had he pushed for some action he would have gotten it. Not intercourse but other stuff.

Part of me thinks our age differences might have been a factor. Im 23 and he is 32, maybe he is used to dealing with older women who put out sooner, I don't know. At any rate he did get in touch with me last night, but I doubt I will continue seeing him. I actually went on a date with another guy who is closer to my age and fulfills my (superficial) list so I might just focus on him.

Again. Thank You!
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 12:23 PM

Posted by Sistah OP:

662,

Yes, did try to contact him once last week. He blew me off for a couple days and his responses gave me the impression he wasn't interested any more. Also the guy makes high 5-figures if not 6-figures so the steak dinner (although a lot to spend on a woman you've know a short time) probably wasn't hurting his wallet.

Funny thing is, I wanted to go to the park. It was suppose to rain so we went to the aquarium. HE upgraded to dinner, not me.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 12:26 PM

Posted by deti:

Sistah OP:

You answered a question I just thought of: you said if 3-date guy had pushed for some action you'd have given up something, though not intercourse.

Consider this: in your past dating, have you in fact done that, i.e., been on a date with a guy you were really into, and he escalated, and you responded favorably? If so, how soon? First date? Second date or later? With how many guys have you done this (responded favorably to a man's escalation)?

And since we have you here I'd like to ask your thoughts on another issue, if Obs will indulge me: Are you a black woman? If so, have you ever dated white men? If not, do you think you'd be open to dating a white man, or is that something you simply would not do for whatever reason?
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 12:35 PM

Posted by deti:

Sistah OP:

By the way, my interest in asking that last series of questions is academic, not personal. I commented on this a couple of posts ago on this blog. And Obs isn't running a dating service.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 12:38 PM

Posted by Sistah OP:

Hello deti,

If Im a date with a m My dating experience is fairly limited compared to women of my cohort so with time the answer might be different. But most guys I have dated dont push me for sex. So the answer is never. Not because I was never into the guys but they moved really slow or were fine with kissing and dinner/hanging out.

Yes, I am black. The men in question are white. So the answer is yes.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 12:44 PM

Posted by deti:

Sistah:

I'm interested in your responses. Let me ask a little more:

As a (now middle aged) white man of 45 my experience with attempting to date black women was in college and graduate school. I was of average looks and game at best. My attempts to date black women I found attractive were always rebuffed, because of "cultural differences" and "it would just be too weird". In truth I think that part of it was that these were just women who friendzoned me or were just not attracted to me.

But-- in your opinion and observation, is there something to a cultural chasm that causes black women to resist dating men other than black men?

Have you dated white men because you find white men more attractive than men of other races; or because white men were the only ones asking you out on dates; or because there were no black men around to date? (I've heard all three stories from various women.)

Does it appear to you that among your cohort there are similar situations regarding WM/BW dating?

Full disclosure: I'm from a small city in the Midwest. WM/BW dating/sex is extremely rare here (or at least that's how it appears). BM/WW dating/sex is more common. What area of the country do you hail from?
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 12:54 PM

Posted by Sistah OP:

Deti,

Dont think so. Some BW might use the "cultural differences" as a reason but 9 times of of 10 they probably weren't interested in whites guys in general or the white guy in question. Its the same thing some white people say when they don't want to date other races. Most of the time they just aren't terribly interested in people of other races so they use "cultural differences" as more PC reason. It sounds rude to say I dont find them attractive or I dont care to understand their cultural point of view.

Honestly, as a BW if there is any cultural chasm its on the part of non-black men. IE not wanting to date BW seriously, or only dating if it results in a quick lay. Many BW are wary of this so they just avoid.

Its a little bit of everything for me. Honestly, the guys that most closely fit my requirements AND are willing to date me have been white. Not to mention I tend to like Mediterranean types, so there is a physical element as well. There are plenty of black guys around to date, but they tend not the be the MBA/JD/MD/ENG degree carrying guys Im typically into. The black guys that are like that AND good looking have plenty of options. I just pick from what comes my way.

Of my black female friends nearly all have dated non-black/white guys, but they seem to prefer black guys above all. I'm not the same way so my dating pattern is different.

Im in the south, large city in TX.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 1:57 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

I found the following quote by today's guest of honor to be quite illuminating:

"Its a little bit of everything for me. Honestly, the guys that most closely fit my requirements AND are willing to date me have been white. Not to mention I tend to like Mediterranean types, so there is a physical element as well. There are plenty of black guys around to date, but they tend not the be the MBA/JD/MD/ENG degree carrying guys Im typically into. The black guys that are like that AND good looking have plenty of options. I just pick from what comes my way."

O: "Plenty of options" meaning, Black Women who are closer to Beyonce than Angie Stone, if not outright non-Black altogether. Not a dig or an insult, just pointing a finer point on it.

Since we're into the Swirling aspect of the discussion, let me point out that I have read and/or heard many a Sista of that persuasion say, that one of the reasons why they go that route is because the White guys are more into "courting" and/or "locking down a serious relationship" than are Black Men - and the data, the numbers, bears this out. I for one have NO intention of marrying, EVER, in large part because I can and will get all my sexual and romantic needs met without ever having to worry about putting a ring on it. Same deal with kids. And as for dating, well, I've written quite extensively about that - I'm far too egalitarian and forward leaning for all that horse and buggy, Mr. Darcy stuff. If a Woman is interested, she needs to step up front, and I am happy to report that quite a few have in my experience. So long as she's the right chica, it's all good; if not, she gets the DQ.

O.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 2:23 PM

Posted by deti:

Obs:

Yeah, but what you’re not seeing - or pointing out – is that what affects interracial dating and sex is not so much race or culture, but masculinity and femininity.

If what Sistah is saying is to be believed – and I have no reason to think it shouldn’t be – is that attractiveness is king. IOW, she doesn’t care if the guy is black or white or whatever, so long as she finds him attractive. She likes men with STEM, business or professional degrees. She likes men who ask her out and take her out. It’s about whether she’s attracted to the guy; not about cultural issues or racial differences or generalized “weirdness” because “well, I’m black and he’s white and it’s too weird”.

No, I didn’t get turned down in grad school because she was a black woman who didn’t want to date a white man. She rejected me because she was an attractive woman who didn’t want to waste time with an unattractive man. Wasn’t about race or culture; it was about attraction. Meaning that we can talk about how Sistah is a black woman; but she’s first and foremost a woman. And we can talk about black men and what they find attractive; but first and foremost we’re talking about men, not black men.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 3:14 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

@Deti:
Oh, you ain't saying nothing but a word; I've long made the case that, comparitively speaking, Black Women place a much higher degree on physical attractiveness on their Men, Black or otherwise, than do other races of Women.

More here: On Hypergamy & Black Women
http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/130979

O.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 4:04 PM

Posted by deti:

Maya Dutchy? Now I'd not seen her before.

That ass. OMG that ass.
Monday, August 26th 2013 @ 4:56 PM

Posted by Grooveback Mountain:

African American women are known for their interest in long-term relationships with Jamaican men, and they represent a rent-a-dread's best chance to obtain a highly coveted U.S. green card. African Americans have been coming to the island in greater numbers ever since Terry McMillan's very public recommendation. The popular author of Waiting to Exhale, a book that takes African American men to task for their lack of commitment to black women, McMillan met a young local during a vacation in Jamaica. She subsequently arranged for the man to come live with her in the States, and she has suggested that professional black women who experience difficulty finding a suitable husband in the United States should try their luck in the Caribbean. According to McMillan, Jamaican men are romantic, sensitive, considerate—and passionate.


McMillan wrote from her experience in her second novel, How Stella Got Her Groove Back. The book was recently transformed into a successful feature film starring Angela Bassett as Stella and Taye Diggs as a 20-year-old Jamaican hunk named Winston Shakespeare. Stella bumps into Winston one morning at her resort and he suggests that they meet at the pajama party to be held later that evening in the hotel. A reluctant Stella shows up in a modest negligee, but she livens up after the first slow dance. Later, Stella seems to cop a feel of Winston's bamboo in a swimming pool. Her suspicions confirmed, she embarks on a passionate affair that ends with marriage in sight by the time the credits roll.


Stella's pajama party seduction is not unusual. In both Barbados and Jamaica, vacationers are seduced on the dance floor. After several draughts of rum punch and a few tokes of ganja, the sex tourist is ready for a "bump and wine"—a crotch-to-crotch pantomime performed in time to the latest soca or reggae rhythm. Much of the foreplay that takes place on Caribbean dance floors could not be shown on American television.

Continued Below....
Tuesday, August 27th 2013 @ 9:58 PM

Posted by Grooveback Mountain:

The beach boy is notorious for his lack of commitment to women. If a more appealing woman shows an interest in him, he turns his attentions to her. But many sex tourists are just as adventurous, or fickle: It is not uncommon to see a woman at a nightclub abandon her young companion for another local who has caught her fancy—perhaps someone she met while her escort was getting drinks from the bar. This often provokes a verbal altercation, especially if the men do not know each other, but the outhustled hustler usually backs off. Soon, he will be back on the dance floor, in search of another unattached tourist.

Despite McMillan's endorsement, not every West Indian is charmed by the beach boys' philandering ways. Many in Jamaica and Barbados frown upon interracial liaisons and public displays of affection. Older residents, and some members of the clergy, condemn the culture of casual sex that makes sex tourism possible in the first place. But many Caribbean men, especially workers in the tourist trade, privately envy the young hustlers. I have heard taxi drivers, security guards, and hotel waiters ponder the glamorous life of the hustler. "If only I was younger," they say. Local women, on the other hand, tend to reserve their hostility for the tourist women, whom they accuse of preying on their young men, leading them astray.

Like many West Indian males, beach boys and rent-a-dreads like to exercise what they consider a husband's authority over their temporary girlfriends. The men determine when and how to have sex, what restaurants and bars and nightclubs to patronize, what sights are worth taking in. First-time visitors generally acquiesce. But for sexually sophisticated women already familiar with the Caribbean, the perquisites of masculine control wear thin after a day or two. Few of these young men have ever been off the island; most never finished high school. When conversation runs aground, their elaborate flattery can lose much of its charm, and the wom
Tuesday, August 27th 2013 @ 9:59 PM

Posted by Grooveback Mountain:

When conversation runs aground, their elaborate flattery can lose much of its charm, and the woman may find herself paying for tiresome company. At this point, the terms of the relationship may be renegotiated—just the sex, please—or the man may be given his walking papers.

Excerpted from:
IN SEARCH OF THE BIG BAMBOO
- Inside the Caribbean Sex Trade

http://www.utne.com/Politics/Inside-the-Caribbean-Sex-Trade.aspx#axzz2dCs07hcC
Tuesday, August 27th 2013 @ 10:01 PM

Posted by Rastaman Vibration:

White vs Black Male Virility in Caribbean Folklore and Popular Culture;

"But the big bamboo has a life outside popular song. In the work of many "intuitive" Rastafarian artists, the dreadlocked male is portrayed nude, with a huge penis, often erect, dwarfing the rest of the body. West Indian fiction also celebrates the sexual power of the Caribbean male. The work of Earl Lovelace, Anthony Winkler, and Jacques Romain is filled with strong and virile male protagonists who lay down the bamboo all night, reducing their female partners to whimpering submission. The tradition of sexual exaggeration reaches a new extreme in Raphaël Confiant's Eau de Café: Confiant's protagonist is endowed with a two-meter penis that he keeps wrapped around his waist. When female characters appear in these stories, they are inevitably restless and hungry, like Sandra in Kwadwo Agymah Kamauís Flickering Shadows. Having spent most of the novel with a sexually inadequate white husband, Sandra ultimately finds deliverance in a virile black man who leaves her spent, weak-kneed, and satisfied."

Read more: http://www.utne.com/Politics/Inside-the-Caribbean-Sex-Trade.aspx#ixzz2dEGEA1qv
Tuesday, August 27th 2013 @ 11:03 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

@GM:
Thanks for the excerpts! It should be noted as well, that McMillan's marriage went down in flames after her "Winston Shakespeare" came out of the closet, LOL. I don't have any problems in the least with "sex tourism", be it any combination (as long as the parties involved are of legal age in the countries in question); actually, from what I've read about the matter that focuses on the Women doing the "buying", in many ways, I feel sorry for them. Many of these Women are considerably older, and not much sought after in their home countries; if they're able to find some measure of pleasure and enjoyment with a younger guy who's willing to do the deed (for the right price), I say more power to em both.

O.
Wednesday, August 28th 2013 @ 8:27 AM

Posted by B.P.:

"There are plenty of black guys around to date, but they tend not to be the MBA/JD/MD/ENG degree carrying guys Im typically into. The black guys that are like that AND good looking have plenty of options. I just pick from what comes my way."

Sistah OP: What are you hoping to achieve by "dating"? It would appear that you are looking for a committed relationship, presumably leading to marriage.

But given your self-described approach to sex while dating, why do you think that your odds will be better with non-Black men in your target group? White men, at least, who have the degrees and the looks you desire have the most options of all among men--especially any White guy alpha enough to approach a Black woman.

These guys are very unlikely to invest in more than three dates before getting "some action"--and they're also unlikely to "push" for it, since they don't really need to. You might be signaling more trouble on this front than these guys believe you're worth, compared to other women they can approach for dates.

So you might ask yourself, despite your "requirements," what the guys you desire hope to achieve by dating you. While the data show that White men generally are more into traditional commitment than are Black men, the data also show that Black women are highly unlikely to secure such commitment from White men--who overwhelmingly prefer White, Asian, and "Hispanic" women.

There is no judgment here. To each, her own.
Wednesday, August 28th 2013 @ 5:38 PM

Posted by Free Download Game PC Full Version:

Hello Obsidian,

First I want to thank you for taking my question and examining the wider issues. I will admit I AM somewhat old fashioned in my ways. That being said I have NO problems whatsoever playing that role in a relationship, nor have I ever used the words "strong and independent" to describe myself. So Im not someone who is trying to play both sides of the sexual liberation game.

With that being said, I think you are right. I even had a gay male friend tell me the same thing. Like I said was REALLY into the guy in question, and had he pushed for some action he would have gotten it. Not intercourse but other stuff.

Part of me thinks our age differences might have been a factor. Im 23 and he is 32, maybe he is used to dealing with older women who put out sooner, I don't know. At any rate he did get in touch with me last night, but I doubt I will continue seeing him. I actually went on a date with another guy who is closer to my age and fulfills my (superficial) list so I might just focus on him.
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