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Saturday, November 24th 2012

2:23 PM

Race & Street Harassment: GLPiggy Responds

Chuck and his readers respond to my recent posts in response to his own on the question of the racial angle regarding "street harassment":

"Obsidian responds to my series of articles on race and street harassment.  His main argument is:  show me the statistics.  But I doubt the police or the FBI are going to start tallying street harassment stats anytime soon, and especially as long as it’s not considered a crime."

O: Au contraire good sir - for if, as the lasses say, they are indeed being pulled about this way and that by all these hissing and wolf-whistling Brothas and Latinos, well then, that's assault - which is most assuredly a crime, and should be prosecuted as such. That should be reflected in the overall crime stats - yes?

Anyway, to be frank and to move on to a few of Chuck's reader responses, given that his previous post on the matter erupted into an orgy of comments, the current post of his on the matter generated just over 20 all told!-I'm insulted. 

Nevertheless, I thought it instructive to post up a few of the comments with my followed by my response; feel free to register your own in the comments section below.

Heartiste, formerly the Dark Lord known as Roissy leads off the hit parade:

"Obsidian’s concern for lack of statistical proof is charming when he can use it to muddy the waters, because it’s a good bet his concern does not extend to the actual statistical proof he pretends to value, like FBI data on crime rates by race."

O: OK, hold it - one of the first things Roissy and others in the loosely-defined HBDsphere do when discussing anythning, is haul out all manner of statistical graphs and sliderules, all while dismissing anyone and everyone who offers anything in the least bit anecdotal - and now, when the Brotha goes to the data as a first principle, it's no good? Anecdote can and must, suffice? Really?

You can't make this stuff up.

At any rate, please note how the R-Man tries to suggest that I'm being intellectually dishonest, which is quite interesting given the fact that here is a Man who does not in any way deny how low he is willing to stoop when it comes to such things himself, especially with the ladies. No, Roissy/Chateau/Heartiste/Whatever You're Calling Yourself This Week - I am only doing what you and so many of your ilk claim to high heaven me and mine don't do - which is to deal, first and foremost, with the evidence - which states, unequivocally, that violent crime of ALL kinds, has and continues to go down, FOR ALL RACIAL GROUPS, over the past few decades. This is per FBI crime data, too. You can't have it both ways - evidence when it suits you, and anecdote when it suits you. Nor can your anecdotal "evidence" trump mine. Why? Simple: because, aside from the fact that I actually am a Black Man and you're not, I also know a heck of a lot more Black and Latino Men than you do, in far more variegated settings, from the Badlands to the Boogie Down and beyond, and have observed countless numbers of them over the years - and can tell you that this notion that "everyone knows" argument is rubbish. Try again - hopefully, with something a bit more than what you droned on about over at Chuck's blog to back you up this time. 

Check this out "bro" - your problem ain't Wendell - it's Wendy. As she showed you several years back, and as her Sisters across the country showed your fellow bros earlier this month, they can and will seriously f*ck you up seven ways to Sunday if you say or do anything they don't much approve of. Alphas don't scapegoat and hate on others - they take their enemies head on. Chop chop, son!

Lara offers the following series of comments, my own replies to which are interspersed:

"I like how Obsidian admits he pleaded with you to distance yourself from your commenters. I would like to ask him what would have been in it for you."

O: Uh, I don't know - a bit more credibility, perhaps (to say nothing of the slightest chance of actually parlaying his blogging love into a paying gig)?

Look, and I've told Chuck this offlist - I think he's an above average writer with a keen talent for observation, who has a golden opportunity to write about a segment of American society that has, to be frank, been shat on for decades - Working Class Whites. Murray opened the conversation up in a big way earlier this year with his "Coming Apart" but since then, few among the Chatterati has given a damn to take his lead or take things a step further - and that includes the so-called "Alt-Rightsphere", too. Because Chuck has solid White Working Class roots, and because he keeps a foot firmly rooted in that world as in his day job as a waiter, I think he really has a chance to give thoughtful, yet incisive commentary about life from that perspective, because if anyone needs an advocate, the White Working Class - particularly, especially, White Working Class Guys - need one. Chuck can be that voice, can be that advocate, a ready made niche for him in a seriously saturated field of wannabe writers and bloggers. 

But if he continues to allow his blog - which is, make no mistake about it, a big part of his "brand" as a writer/blogger - to be mistaken for Stormfront Jr. - he can and will run the very real risk of being associated with disaffected, bigoted cranks, who can't be taken seriously about anything, to say nothing of continuing the tired White Guy Tactic of alienating anyone and everyone who could actually help him.

Take the current "street harassment" kerfuffle for example - if Chuck and Roissy were smart, they would have alliances with Brothas and Latinos who then could directly challenge the SWPL Feministas on their assertions, and raise some inconvenient truths about how and what they really feel about their ostensible "Sistas in Arms" - but that's not gonna happen, because White Guys on the Right have perfected the art of Alienating Errbody Who Ain't White Guys. The result?

They get got per Nov 6th, with no one there to get their back. And this can and will continue to happen, until they either get a clue, or wind up becoming an exhibit at the Smithsonian. 

At any rate, the simple truth of the matter is that those who fill his commenter sections aren't doing him any favors, and his posts are fueling their antics. If Chuck really wants to accomplish something in this world, like I've noted above he has a golden opportunity. If on the other hand, he simply wants to Feed the Cranks, he is most certainly welcome to do so. Maybe he can make a goodly bit of coin doing it. Good luck with that...

"Dragnet’s comment is typical. Black men, even ones who enjoy being black men, are jealous of white men."

O: Calling Dragnet...

Actually, Dragnet made a few points that merit further discussion, especially in light of a recent conversation I had offlist with someone about all of that. I plan to give my take on what he said in the coming days; in the meantime, like I've said above, "calling Dragnet"...

"I wonder if white women, who are with black men, have to listen to a lot of trash talk about white men. I bet they do."

O: Not that I'm an expert on "swirling" or anything like that, but from what I've heard, actually, it's the other way around - White Women complain about White Men to their Black Men a heck of a lot more than the other way around...

Checkout the thread/post for yourselves and again, feel free to come to your own conclusions. One of the big takewaways - and ironies - of the post, is the fact that Chuck and Roissy are essentially siding with the very Hipster SWPL Feminist they otherwise claim to despise, all in an effort to blame Brothas for...something. They can't backup what they say in the light of actual crime data; they can't even offer any video proof anecdotally either; all we have to go on is the "everybody knows..." argument, which is BS in extremis. Chuck and Roissy know as much about Black Men as the SWPL Feminists do - which again, is quite ironic. 

Again, you just can't make this stuff up. Whew.

Now adjourn your asses...

The Obsidian
31 comment(s).

Posted by Chuck Ross:

Obsidian,

I haven't written that this is a Huge Major Problem Which Needs to Be Addressed Immediately. I've not called for candlelight vigils or anything like that. It's also not a crime, and I disagree with your premise that any of this constitutes assault. But for those who do consider these behaviors a blight on civil society i.e. Jezebel and feminists, they're ignoring the clear pattern that when women are confronted in this manner it is almost always black men. Jezebel will mention the incidents but not the pattern, and that's something I've spent a lot of my time focusing on: the "eracure" of news stories.

Personally, I know plenty of women who have dealt with this, mostly from black men. It's not the end of the world, but it's behavior that is uncomfortable for many women to deal with. I've witnessed it go down and I find it crude and obnoxious too. I don't have to be a feminist to recognize this.
Saturday, November 24th 2012 @ 4:32 PM

Posted by dragnet:

@ Lara

Not sure how to respond to your comment, really. I am not in any sense “jealous” of white men. From where I sit, white men, as a demographic, are beginning to revert to the mean while guys like me are on the upswing. I’ve done a lot after being given so little in life initially. I live a good life—I have no one to be jealous of. I urge you to look at some of my past posts on Obsidian’s blog, The Spearhead, Roissy, etc—I’ve been plenty tough on white people but I’ve made it clear that white men get something of a bum rap. I considered myself to be very considered and even-handed toward them—after all, they’re my brothers, too.

I have dated many white attractive women in my day (currently dating two of them). For the record, white men, as a demographic, have never come up for conversation.
Saturday, November 24th 2012 @ 8:42 PM

Posted by La Reyna(Stephanie):

I wondered about the hypocrisy of the HBD/race realism crowd. They're hypocritical. They pretend to condemn Black and Latino men for their predations of women while at the same time cover up the predations of White and Asian men. We all know that White men enjoy sexual privilege more than any other group of men in America. Yet, they scapegoat Black men for rape and molestation of women for centuries while turning a blind eye to their own men raping and abusing women.

The media spends too much time on the Chris Brown/Rhianna saga as opposed to Gabriel/Halle, Charlie Sheen, Roman Pulanski, etc.

I'm just sick and tired of the mostly White HBD harping about Black and Hispanic men's supposed harrassment of women. It's getting tired.

La Reyna (Stephanie)
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 4:43 PM

Posted by MaMu1977:

@Chuck Ross

You need to lurk moar. The urbanite feminists (usually in the HB 4-7 range), complain about the constant intrusion of street harassment at the mouths of black men, that is true. However, there's no end of rural, suburban and foreign-born/living feminists who are complaining about the same thing (at the hands of non-Africans.) Femen and Pussy Riot are two examples of feminist movements with wide-spread appeal (albeit, low numbers) who have made street harassment a cause celebre. Their main stomping grounds are the Ukraine and Russia, the parts of the planet that aren't known for the presence of black people. On top of that, the majority of their foreign adherents are rural (with their urban sisters drawing their assailants from impoverished urban "white" males.) Sarah Suburbanite may find herself being propositioned by (in her mind) "low class bums" when she moves to the city, but Sarah Suburbanite *chose* to live in those environments. Rural Ruth's and Sassy Sally's complaints are drowned out by the SWPLs, who I still believe are doing it for attention and not from any legitimate fear.

I *live* next to a lower-income area in New York City, less than a mile away to be clear. There's no end to the amount of women (regardless of race) who will walk around with everything on display, who will laugh and jiggle when the local "ballers" are showing appreciation, then act like the sky is falling when a "substandard" man yells something derogatory. As a student of Game, you should know that Cool Kenny is allowed to say and do things that would get Average Arnold fired or worse. You should also know that using Average Arnold's attention as a way to bolster their own self-esteem/self-damsel is another tactic for the average woman. Like I said in the last post: if street harassment is such a scourge, then why aren't these women posting videos on the Internet? The best answer, AFAICT, is because their main "tormenters" are the powerless. But, victims gonna vict
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 5:17 PM

Posted by MaMu1977:

There are plenty of women who have done so (check through Blogger and Tumblr.) Videos of guys screaming obscenities, profanities, sexual innuendoes, etc., but those sites don't receive nearly as much attention as Jezebel or Hollaback. Japanese women have sites in their section of the internet where they call out their abusers, African-American women do the same. You can hear the sluts, the crudeness; you can see the gestures, the actions, you can even see the random grope or flash. Yet, the most empowered group of women on the planet, the women who will post a dozen videos of their weekend fun, can't be bothered to press "Record" when their (in their own words) "daily abusers" are doing things that make them uncomfortable? The best that we can get, 9 times out of 10, is a blurry shot of what usually looks like a nonchalant or sleeping man?

In NYC, there was a white man who was a serial flasher of (non-American) Asian women. His targets didn't go running to Jezebel to complain about how *all men* are pervy wankers, they took pictures and made flyers and eventually had enough evidence to give to the police. There have been a couple of high-profile black flashers here. They were caught in the act by black women and restrained by black men. Their victims didn't go running to Jezebel with "ESL, a penis I hate all men!", stories, they got off their asses and did things. The most obvious black molester was a teenager who rubbed his penis against a woman. In a subway car full of white woman, it was two black people who had the sense to turn on their phones and record the act. In fact, it wasn't until a black woman spoke up and two black men cornered the guy that a SWPL decided to give her two cents. I'm just saying, this isn't the 1940's. "If you see something, say something", should be more powerful in an age of ubiquitous recording devices, not less.
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 5:35 PM

Posted by MaMu1977:

And to clarify by what I mean when I say that marginally attractive women get the crudest attention...

I have a cousin who was a frequent target of harassment when she was younger. At 5'4", 200 pounds, every hoodrat, hooligan, scallywag, etc., that met her felt that they had the "right" to talk to her as if she was on sale. Over three years, my cousin skimmed down from 200+ pounds to 120 pounds. Given the knowledge about golden means and secondary sexual characteristics, you'd think that she could barely walk the streets without men tearing at her clothes, right? Wrong, wrong! Despite the fact that she looks like a video model now, she doesn't even bother to cover herself up any more (and she "tsks" me when I tell her to do so.) She's a walking proof of the Roissy maxim regarding excess weight and female beauty: by losing almost a whole person in weight, she's gone from a passable 5 to an unadorned 8. When is shown some friends a few pre-weight loss pictures, they said that she was "cute-ish" and "At least she has some tig ol' bitties"(remember, this is how they're describing a woman to one of her *relatives*.). When I showed them post-weight loss pictures, they asked me for her number and said that I should curse a God that made her related to me. SMV *matters*. Those guys aren't going after dimes ("hot" women), they're pursuing nickels and loose change
(average women and women who are "exploring their sexuality"). If you're a guy and you're looking for a ONS, who would *you* target: the always sharp and physically fit woman, or the kinda-alright woman who you've *seen* making out (or more) with various guys?
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 6:28 PM

Posted by dragnet:

Lovin your posts MaMu--learning a lot from them. You are bringing the real talk loud clear bro.
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 8:58 PM

Posted by MaMu1977:

The person who should really know better is Heartiste.
He's written *so many* articles about
Slut "Tells"
Never Listen to What a Woman Says, Listen to What She Does
Black Men Have More Game Than White Men
Women Will Lie to Look Less Slutty
Go After The Low-Hanging Fruit, etc.

But when he reads about "teh screet her-ass-ment" at the hands of urban guys, he dons the gleaming armour and readies his Stallion of Justice! Despite his experience with the vagaries of the female mind, he never thinks
If a guy is looking for a hookup, and he sees a woman who is "embracing her sexuality", he's going to go for her. He's talking as if the majority of these women are chador-clad all-but-nuns who spend their days at a charity and their nights singing in a choir and feeding their invalid mothers. He's talking like he *hasn't* hooked up with girls who had-
Fucked Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky, Mike, Ralph, Johnnie, K-Ci, Jojo, Dalvin, Devante..., in three months' time
Taken off their "businesswoman powersuit" at 6PM and switched it for the camel toe-revealing leggings and the bustier.
Been known as the "Three Shot Blowjob Girl" at the bars in her neighbourhood.
Been seen delivering hardcore PDA with guys from every background *but* the one in her home area.
Is known as the "girl who talked about how she learned to like it in the butt while she was on a full city bus"...

Believe me, for every "good" woman who has *never* done *anything* sexually suggestive in *any form* that receives an undue amount of attention, there are plenty of women who move to the "big city" to live out their SATC episodes ("No, *I'm* Samantha and *you're* Charlotte!") And sorry, I can't bring myself to cry for a woman who gets hit on after she's spent her first year in Brooklyn talking about "funky spunk." If I can't bring myself to feel sorry for a black teenager who takes a swing at a cop while singing "Fuck the Police!", I'm *not* going to White Knight for women who I've seen sucking dick for co
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 9:28 PM

Posted by Y:

MaMu...its interesting that you bring up your cousin and harassment (or lack thereof) she gets when out and about. I was thinking about Obsidian's theory that for the most part Plain Jane's are complaining about harassment. From what I have noticed looks around me, when this harassment occurs its usually the "lower status" guys that engage in it. And they are usually "targeting" women that around where they are in the SMP, maybe a bit higher.

I have never seen a "babe" being catcalled let allow harassed in broad daylight. The guys that do this stuff ultimately know where the stand sexually and socially, thus they save themselves the embarrassment that comes from gunning out of their league...

Also have YOU thought of starting blog? You have a very engaging writing style.
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 11:02 PM

Posted by Holla Back:

Y, so harrassement doesn't count unless its done to a babe? So what if its plain women who are complaining that lower status guys are doing it? Does that make their complaints less valid? Does it make those lower status guys correct? As for the youtube videos request, a black woman made a documentary about this and the name of it escapes me right now but there are plenty of youtube videos where people discuss this. In the meantime here's this article
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/06/living/street-harassment/index.html
Sunday, November 25th 2012 @ 11:51 PM

Posted by Y:

@ Holla Back

Im not sure what the point of your comment is. I never said or even implied that street harassment doesn't count unless it happens to a "babe". I was just stating MY OWN observation on the matter at hand and its relation to MaMu's comments wrt his cousin. When she was 'ok' looking the harassment happened a lot, when she got 'hot' it happened way less. I didn't say these guys were correct. For the record, I don't think it is. I think we have all witnessed a some thirsty dude with nothing better to do aggressively pursuing anything in a skirt. Or guys leering to the point were it makes the women and some bystanders uncomfortable, but that not the point of this article. Here we have Obsidian (and he will correct me if Im wrong) questioning the extent to which this street harassment occurs. Does it happen enough to were we need to have a national summit, articles, documentaries, ect on the matter? Is it to blame for the obesity levels of some (black) women, as an anonymous Ebony blogger suggested? Is it as dire as some of these women are making it out to be. That is the question at hand..

As for the documentary, unless it has multiple raw footage clips of street harassment happening save yourself the trouble of posting the link. The point MaMu was making (he will correct me if Im wrong) is were is the 'evidence'? Even if these incidents are not reported and therefore do not show up in crime stats there should at least be loads video or photographic documentation of this behavior, if it is happening as often some feminists want us to believe. The absence of this documentation in the era of youtube, Instagram, Facebook and other digital/social media where sharing info is just a click away puts a dent in the 'street harassment is EVERYWHERE" crowd's argument.

Hope I cleared some things up for you.
Monday, November 26th 2012 @ 2:42 AM

Posted by dragnet:

All of this just goes to reinforce what I have said time and again on Roosh/PMAFT/Spearhead: that white nationalists are, by and large, really just white knights.

These guys are exactly who we thought they were.
Monday, November 26th 2012 @ 12:37 PM

Posted by MaMu1977:

@Y

Got it in one. I never said that street harassment wasn't a crime (albeit minor, barring physical action.) However, in the same way that a habitual drunk driver is always going to get a side-eye if he reaches for his keys after drinking, in the same way that a guy who's known for getting into fights is always going to grab the attention of other people if he raises his voice, in the same way that a guy who brags about taking money from the till at his job is going to attract negative attention if he appears somewhere with hundreds of dollars, women who act out in a sexual manner are going to be treated in a sexual manner (whether they so desire it or not) in the future.

It isn't fair, it isn't even "right", but It's going to happen. Actions have consequences. The reason why I used those disclaimers in one of my posts on this subject is based on my own experiences. There are a *lot* of women in major cities who put themselves out there through "excessively sexual" behaviour. The fact that they've turned over a new leaf does nothing to erase their prior actions (in the same way that the habitual drunk driver is going to have his keys grabbed by his friends, the fighter will receive cooling down attention from his friends, etc.) Snoop Lion (lol) has made a career for himself as a weed-smoking Crip. If he woke up *tomorrow* and set up a press conference to announce that he's changed his ways, he would *still* be known as the "weed-smoking Crip" for years to come. If/When women make their sexually-liberal ideas known (overtly or covertly) to the people in an area, showing up for church or discovering a feminist "rebirth" does nothing to erase your conversations or actions from peoples' minds. I "dated" a woman who inherited a strip club from her father in 2006. It's almost 2013, but I'm *still* known as "the guy who interviewed strippers for the titty bar" by some people, despite the fact that I never set foot in the building.
Monday, November 26th 2012 @ 1:31 PM

Posted by MaMu1977:

And yes, in a world of Instagram, Pinterest, Reddit, YouTube, Facebook, etc., finding large amounts of evidence should be a piece of cake. KONY 2012 was viral, Internet shows like the Young Turks have put a spotlight on trending videos, Bus Uppercut Girl, McDonald's Beatdown Girls, Gangnam Style have gone viral. But a group of women who have been known for making detailed websites, videos and art about the "forbidden love" between (for example) Sam and Dean Winchester can't use the ubiquitous cameraphone and document the (in their own words) "hundreds of sex-based microaggressions" that they deal with on a "daily basis"?

I've experienced my fair share of objectification. I lived in all-white environments for a decade. If I had a dollar for every time a white person saw fit to ask me about the size of my penis, I could buy a first-class round-trip ticket to Asia (Europe, if I cut the number down to people who wouldn't take, "I'm not answering that question! What the fuck is wrong with you!?", for an answer.) Am I going to turn that into a stalking point re: race relations, and blow up the Internet due to my discomfort, knowing that my claims are essentially hearsay sans documentation? No, because it comes across as attention whoring. Because the majority of the people who I've known have never asked. Because I possess an (eroded, but still present) level of faith in humanity.
Monday, November 26th 2012 @ 1:54 PM

Posted by dragnet:

PAGING OBSIDIAN:

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-why-black-women-also-fear-black-men/

Black man scapegoats black man on behalf of black women---and the beat goes on...
Tuesday, November 27th 2012 @ 1:44 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

Hey Dragnet,
Yup, just got an email from Chuck offlist with this link earlier this morning. I'm reading it now, and may respond in due course. Thanks fo the heads up!

O.
Tuesday, November 27th 2012 @ 2:54 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

@Dragnet:
Just got finished reading the GMP article you and Chuck referred me to; and I found the following comment in the discussion thread, by one Brotha named OGWriter:

""@Robert: It seems to me you are, as is usually the case when discussing the bad things some black-men do sometimes, overstating the facts and in some ways leaving out some facts as well.

I was raised by a black woman and I have noticed that the contributions to violence in the community, in my lifetime, include her contributions, but are seldom talked about openly. This is particularly true of black men and boys who are taught( INDOCTRINATED) to never ever criticize or mention the wrong that MOMMA does in public, ever! Most black people I know have at least one horror story of abuse involving their mother, but she gets a free pass, leaving black men to carry the entire burden.

Momma’s violence is ok because she is under duress. Momma’s violence and abuse and emasculation of men is ok because she is a victim.Momma’s abuse is ok because she has suffered racism.It wasn’t ok in the movie Precious or Finding Fish or any of the other under reported instances we ignore.

Most of what I learned about abuse and violence I learned from my mother. Unfortunately, it was then and is still called raising black boys in America. That black women and other women can be violent is Americas sleeping giant...
Tuesday, November 27th 2012 @ 3:09 PM

Posted by Obsidian:

OGWriter's comment continued:

"And there in lies one of the problems; It is ok to treat black boys abusively as long as you are preparing them for the outside world. I know far too many boys who are afraid of their mothers. So, while I’m sure you position will win you friends and get you opportunities to write for mainstream feminists and pro feminist magazines it doesn’t mean it’s true. No one is interested in hearing or presenting the other side of the story to the world. For you to say that I am positioning myself as the enemy because of what some random asshole does is ridiculous. My mother was never as afraid of me as I was of her. Stop covering up for the behavior of black women at the expense of black men. If a black woman is going to be afraid of all black men because of a few then that’s her problem, or yours not mine, not mine. I coach at a high school in Oakland California. Everyday I hear girls cursing out boys, challenging boys to fights, calling the boys gay, calling them punks, d calling them tricks, soft, or too girly if they don’t meet some stupidly formed arbitrary definition of masculinity as defined by a mean, snarky, attitude dripping, teenage girl. Lastly, ALL black women aren’t scared of all black men. Do me a favor, don’t speak for me, I am not a part of your “we”. You are one black man who has an obvious bias( you are a feminist) and it prevents you from seeing this problem of violence in its entirety."

Read more at http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-good-life-why-black-women-also-fear-black-men/#LUdG4LkzypT0rksg.99

O: I think he sums up my response...

O.
Tuesday, November 27th 2012 @ 3:10 PM

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My comment about dragnet may have been a little harsh. I only wanted to point out that I don't think this idea of "white male privilege" has much basis in reality. Most white men, throughout history, have not lived particularly privileged lives.
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